Transcript (繁體中文)

敬兒
諸位“洗衣”聽眾們晚上好，您正在收聽的是CF90.5 “洗衣清單”，從Saskatoon，Saskatchewan第六條約領土向您廣播。我是你們的主持人敬兒。今天來到我們工作室的嘉賓是我的新朋友雪萊，她是上週從多倫多來訪的藝術家，說“嗨～”。 嗯，我們已經對這種（加拿大）草原地區的中國歷史進行了非常全面的訪問，我感覺那就是我們做的事情。

雪萊
是的，一個到目前為止信息十分豐富的入門介紹。這是我第一次來Saskatoon，第二次來大草原。我的主要創作題材大多是回顧那些歷史上曾被作為抵抗，或分享故事，或用於集會的中國場所。我總是告訴別人，我的作品旨在使我的這一系列學習研究過程顯得清晰可見。Saskatoon 真的很棒，大家都那麼友善。我這次做的這個藝術家駐地是AKA畫廊的一部分，他們真的非常慷慨，邀請我來吸納這裡的一切，然後在二零二零年五月舉辦我的個展。所以，我試著在腦海中回想我們在這做過的所有事情；我們遊覽過Moose Jaw的隧道，參觀過 Western Development 博物館，去過許多家餐館。然後我們去過，我去過市裡的大學的檔案庫，和當地的歷史圖書館，最後我見到了你的家人。

敬兒
我爸爸拍了個自拍。然後我們去了Mackenzie畫廊。

雪萊
我們得以訪問在Regina的Mackenzie畫廊，遇見了許多當地相當有天賦的藝術家及其他。我非常高興我們一起去了隧道，使得這次經歷變得這麼有意義；比如說這是我第一次來這種規模的小鎮，不好意思，是城市-這樣如此具有豐富歷史的城市。然而這是你第二次穿隧道，因為你小時候曾經跟家裡人一起去過。

敬兒
對啊對啊，就好像是：如果不是因為這次和你在一起的特定機會，我估計不會再故地重游了。因為這不僅僅是單純的旅遊觀光，而是我換了一個視角。這一次，我的感受是：第一，這次重遊像是接受拷問；第二，這個隧道的內容； 第三，觀眾怎樣接收這些內容。

雪萊
所以，也許每個人都知道這些隧道遊覽，但是遊覽的本身就是Moose Jaw的這些隧道，我知道的去過Moose Jaw的人都對隧道非常熟悉。但是他們提供兩大主要遊覽項目；其中一個大致是關於Al Capone的歷史，他其實從未在Moose Jaw居住過，我不認為但是這是一種類似禁令的行事方式。也許這就是用於走私盜版酒的隧道。另一個我們參觀過的項目被稱為“財富大道”。它所講述的，是早期中國殖民者的虛構故事，以及他們在這些Moose Jaw的隧道中所可能受到的遭遇。因此，我的意思是，相較於多倫多而言，大草原有著豐厚悠久的中國歷史，你懂的。它很不同，因為很多事都發生在世紀交接的時刻，就像我來這裡所接觸到的信息一樣，穿越了50餘年，因此，這些隧道需要慢慢品味消化。

敬兒
我現在還在消化。

雪萊
我的意思是，讓我們從最開始回憶。我們剛剛趕上（那次遊覽）。太好了，

敬兒
他們在那個像大廳的地方搖大鈴鐺。

雪萊
然後他，我們的導遊，他事前跟我們交代了很多東西，總的來說，在這次遊覽體驗裡面，我們扮演的就是當年在先生那裡打工的中國工人。

敬兒
是Burrows先生，他經營洗衣生意，他動用廉價勞動力，專招那些來到這裡還需要為移民還債的中國人。這裡面有很多的歷史，他們（Burrows先生）說的好像永遠被困在這地方是件好事一樣。不過對的，我們的遊覽團扮演的是一群中國新移民。

雪萊
導遊向我們敘述並且情景化了所有序幕，我們所使用的語言都是過時的。就在這裡，我們都是一群在洗衣坊打工的苦力（coolie)；我們就在這種角色扮演遊戲下走過隧道，有讓我驚嘆“哇噻”的一幕是當導遊打開一道秘密暗門的時候；據說那就是苦力們工作的地方。我們一邊遊覽一邊聽講解，真的非常複雜，所有道具都製作的非常精緻，有很多可能還是當年用過的真品？

敬兒
對，完全是。而且我感覺就像穿越時空一樣，到那個“你們都是苦力”的年代；就像是我們就要以這種歧視貶低的方式跟你們說話，因為我們想讓你體驗一下做一個二十世紀初中國移民的感覺。不過在我們那個有10或12個遊客的遊覽團裡面，有五個是亞裔的，我想。

雪萊
四到五個。

敬兒
每個人都是54歲以上，其餘所有人都有白頭髮而且是白人。所以，看到這個年輕的白人導遊，用這樣的語言向這群以白人中老年人為主的遊覽團說話，對於我們兩個來說，這樣真的讓人覺得舒服嗎？嘿，就像，

雪萊
我的意思是，這感覺很奇怪，因為我從來沒被叫過“苦力”。因為那是很過時的語言，並且不是現在用來貶低東亞人的髒話，但你知道，當時覺得奇怪現在還是覺得奇怪。

敬兒
對，絕對的。

雪萊
但這次遊覽仍然令人期待，而且感覺因為年代變得更加沈重。 而且，你知道，遊覽團裡有一個年紀大的東亞女人，我總是好奇：1，她為什麼參加這個遊覽；2，她有什麼樣的感覺？但是總而言之，我不得不說他們是全力打造歷史信息再現。對，像這種秘密暗門，歷史小說式的敘事方式，的確頗具娛樂性；他們真的做了很多研究。比如，我們在探討 “coolie”這個單詞到底是什麼樣的，它曾經是“苦力”的音譯，在普通話裡意為痛苦的力量；就像克服一切苦難一樣。不過被變成了一種用於侮辱的誹謗。

敬兒
是的，這一點我不知道，所以我在學習。我仍在這次遊覽中學習，這點很酷。 不過還是覺得很超現實。

雪萊
這絕對是為白人觀眾而創的，是一種同情的視角。讓我們談談遊覽最後的那個人。

敬兒
因為在遊覽結束後，回到車裡，我們腦海裡還有太多問題。在你遊覽過所有展品之後，在遊覽結束的時候。你走過了一間洗衣房，一個廚房，一個所謂的移民局，和很多類似的東西，當你終於走到盡頭的時候，啊，還有一個鴉片館。也是宿舍。所以在整個遊覽途中，他們在講故事，但與此同時他們也試圖向你粗略得提供當時的政治政策和歷史背景。但在最後，他們問“有什麼問題嗎？”的時候，有一個人說：“那些中國人其實不是被迫住在這項隧道裡的吧？他們完全可以上去到其他地方找工作。他們喜歡待在這下面。”

雪萊
這是第一個問題。對，而且我不知道該作何感想，我的意思是，我很好奇。但我也很好奇這些人為什麼來參加這個遊覽。

敬兒
是的，你知道的，在整個遊覽過程中，遊客們各種“哦～”各種“啊～”得唏噓。時不時拿著這些歷史遊覽敘事說笑。我的第一個問題，說得好聽一些，可以總結為：這類歷史敘事有多成功？我不認為中國人曾住在這些隧道裡，因為沒有確鑿證據，而且隧道也不是為此目的而建造的。現在的話題更傾向於證明“中國苦力因為地表惡劣的環境被迫躲藏于這樣的地下場所”這一假設的合理性。

是的，我認為導遊曾經說過這些隧道其實是為蒸汽維修工人建的，比如為城市供暖的鍋爐引擎之類的東西。他們只是在後來發現了一些其他用途。就像這些虛構的人物，比如Burrows先生，還有那些擁有商鋪的人心想：“哦，我可以得到廉價勞動力並且可以把他們藏起來，因為現在沒人想看中國人。” 然後，某些遊客從這個故事中學到的唯一道理就是“哦，沒人逼他們留在下面，他們自願選擇待在那。” 我想知道那個人是怎麼想的，他可能認為這些導遊太竭力的想塑造一個博人同情的故事，他們想要創造被害者的形象，然而在觀眾眼中當今的中國人並不是這種形象。仔細想想，這種“歷史再現”中有多少成分是真實的？因為這個故事顯得很俗氣，觀眾們在遊覽結束後是會感覺自己上了一堂歷史課，還是看了個笑話？

雪萊
而且此後我一直在認真思考，現在我們有了幾天的時間來斟酌醞釀這件事，比如從他（導遊）的視角中迫使出了什麼，因為我覺得總是有這麼一層因素：政治可信度。當你試圖讓白人觀眾相信一份生活經歷，但你單純向他們口述，而不結合你的真實生活經歷，這使人就連想打同情牌都難。所以當他說“迫使”，他一定指的是當時的法律政策逼迫苦力們到地下的，或者...

敬兒
就像這樣想：這是一群活人，被拖到地下，然後被層層暗門守著；想想，在他（導遊）的心目中，也許他在把這件事同奴隸販賣之類的事相較。這本身不是一件那麼壞的事，因為他並不具備理解這些事情的文化知識背景。這就有點像當你試圖解釋種族主義的微侵略的時候，總有一些人會說：“啊，你也許太鑽字眼了”之類的話。也許他們是一樣的感受，也許我們在過於糾結這段歷史的時候把這些事件誇大得比真實歷史更糟糕。

雪萊
我認為這就是我們之間的差異：我們去遊覽的目的的差異，和我們對故事的接受程度的差異。就比如說我們有這樣的一個構想：當年的環境那麼惡劣，惡劣到在這個虛構作品的世界中形成了一股讓人別無他選的勢力。但對於他（導遊）來說，那是一種自主的選擇。

敬兒
對對，肯定的。 不論他們想描繪怎樣的一幅畫面，不論他們在整個遊覽途中講了多少糟糕的故事，這仍然沒有在情感層面上擊中要害：比如你會做何反應，如果你活在那個年代你會有什麼感想。

雪萊
而且那隧道裡面的秀太神奇了，因為那是個那麼簇擁緊湊的小街角，對，我們當時就正對著當年那修好的鐵路。然後我記得當時我們特別想看街對面的遺址，現在被改造成Capone的私人酒店了。_笑_

對的，第一大街。那就是我特別想讓你參觀的地方，因為那裡就是發生“那一件”最高法院案件的加拿大最高法院；那個案件首先是由Saskatchewan 法院審查，然後上訴到加拿大最高法院。基本上講，在1912年的時候Saskatchewan省頒發了一道法令，規定中國人，日本人，和東亞人，我記得當時應該是統稱的東方人種，是不能僱用白人女性工作的。當然，這是在加拿大慢慢有了足夠規模的能正常運轉的中國企業的時候。而且我應該提到，在那個時候這裡幾乎是沒有中國女人的；我記得在人口普查上只記載了一到兩個。

敬兒
都是因為 “移民法案” 對嗎？

雪萊
是的。你不能帶家人過來。所以說，當時有很多白人女性也正在找工作用以謀生。這一案例的驚人之處在於Quong Wing極力反對這一法令，將它上訴到了加拿大最高法院。他的論點基本上是表明他是皇室歸化的英國公民，因為當時加拿大國籍還不存在；所以，他以“白紙黑字證明我不屬於你們劃分的這一類中國佬”的理由向這一立法提出挑戰。但後來法院還是以4票對1票的結果把他歸結為“中國佬”，因為他們是以種族而不是以國籍來劃分的。所以，我真的很同情這個人，他走到這一步，他上訴，他開啟了自己的事業，但他卻被告知“你永遠不會被視作平等”。很有意思的是：在這個案例中，“白人”這個詞被首次使用。而且那兩個被Quong Wing雇用的女人，我想說她們分別是俄羅斯裔和德裔；但她們並沒有被規劃為“白人”，因為只有英裔和法裔的白人才會被認可為“白人”。

敬兒
對，比如（來自於）西歐大陸的。

雪萊
所以這項法令變得非常複雜。而且我們在遊覽中了解到這法令直到四十年代的時候才被廢除。

敬兒
或者像他們說的，69年左右。是的，這很有意思，因為他們說立法是在Saskatchewan省執行的，然後有一些日裔的和其他東亞的企業主上訴到省法院說：“嘿，把我們從這個歸類中去掉，你們這樣做不行”。於是，他們才把法令取消；但是“中國佬”們仍然被這條法令壓制到69年左右，對，就像你說的。

雪萊
我還查了查人口普查，當時這一帶有一位日裔的企業主。所以我猜是他起的訴。

敬兒
他就說“你沒問題”，對。

雪萊
我的意思是，這很了不起。這樣一群企業主團結起來對抗這樣法令，因為上訴最高法院需要花很多的財力和其他資源，而且花了那麼長的時間。

敬兒
對，我也記得在遊覽結束的時候，就在遊客們問問題的時候；我不記得具體的問題，還是一些關於法律之類的事。當時就有人竊竊私語道：“哈哈，被一個中國人僱傭的下場不會太好。” 所以從某種意義上講，世態一點都沒變。

雪萊
所以，你什麼都沒學到嗎？

敬兒
明擺著，就像這樣，有太多東西是根深蒂固的，是嗎？

這些人到底有多麼... 你看，一整下午，經過了一個多小時的歷史遊覽，了解了那麼多掙扎，然後他們就這樣；我知道，人只有在類似這樣的情況下才顯露出他們的本色。

雪萊
我們也想過，好，這是我們在車上討論過的問題裡我最喜歡的一個：如果我們倆來申請這份工作，我們能得到這職位嗎？我是說當這裡的導遊？那會有怎樣的反響？如果我們第一：叫白人觀眾“苦力”；第二，如果由我們來傳達這些信息，對吧，那樣的效果會更好嗎？還是說會遭到更多的牴觸？會不會顯得很氣勢洶洶？對，到底有沒有這個可能性？

敬兒
對啊，他們會聘用我們嗎？我們在考慮，我們想知道：這樣的歷史重述是否可行。因為他們會說：“哦，這是我們Saskatchewan省歷史上可恥的時刻。” 但這就像，如果你對自己說這樣的話，並且成為講述這些故事的人，那麼它就像在某種程度上減輕了傷害，對嗎？換個角度，如果換成我來說 “這是你們歷史上可恥的一刻”的話，他們就會覺得這是在針對他們，對吧？他們能夠接受我們對他們說這樣的話嗎？還是說我們的白人同胞們只願意從其他白人那裡聽取這類意見？

雪萊
也就是說，這是白人盟友的功勞嗎？

敬兒
對，但是，這些就是他們應該做的嗎？仔細想想這些故事的講述和接受方式，這樣做真的有效嗎？這樣能改變些什麼？這樣做擊中了哪些要害？我不知道。然後再考慮下，你在經歷了整個可怕的，這個發生在一個世紀前，關於充滿種族歧視的移民法的故事之後，再想想當今的移民狀況：比如現在我們國家關係到移民啊，難民啊，工作簽證啊之類的法律。他們會從這兩者之間聯想到當今的移民法仍然有多麼糟糕嗎？也許不會。就像從白人的角度來看，白人觀眾會很輕易的說：“這是我們過去的污點，不過這些都過去了，而且這些都早已結束了。”

雪萊
我想這也就是其中的問題所在。為什麼在多元文化主義法案成立後的加拿大那麼喜歡自我安慰自我表揚？對，這些故事被貶作歷史。我們活在歷史中而不是成為歷史的一部分，就像我們當今所面對的各種壓迫都溯源與歷史一樣。我們只需要看看我們國界南邊的狀況... 等等，其實我們根本不需要往國界以南看，就說這裡，加拿大境內。加拿大有歷史，而且當今的事件正在發生著。你懂的，昨天是七月四日，遍地虛偽橫行；相較於關押滿孩子的集中營，人們更不滿與由黑人演員飾演的Ariel（迪士尼小美人魚）。我不知道，（要想世界和平可能還要等個）100年或更久。你最近發表了一些關於七月一日和恥辱日的傑作，這是一整個再好不過的星期來發表這一類似的東西，因為這是尤其充滿愛國精神的一週。

敬兒
啊，對，完全的。我也是在“加拿大日”的週末之後才最近了解道“恥辱日”，這就像當時在所謂的“自治領日”，如今叫“加拿大日”的當天，就制定了“排他法案” 時一樣。這很矛盾，就像現在舉國上下慶祝“加拿大日”，但與此同時忽視歷史上同一天發生的醜惡的事，就和所有殖民主義國家一樣。我在想的是，為什麼，在“恥辱日”發生的這時候，加拿大華人社區的態度是：“我們不慶祝這一天，這個歧視種族的，虛偽的國家。” 如果這些事情被遺忘的話，今後的亞裔加拿大人便會說“哇！我們都不知道這一段歷史”從而加入這樣的“慶祝”。對，這些發生的很恰時機，就像我剛了解了“恥辱日”，緊接著第二天就去遊覽隧道而且了解更多這方面的歷史一樣。

雪雪萊
然後今天，我們去了Western Development 博物館

敬兒
對我們去了。

雪萊
這挺搞笑的，因為我覺得當我向每一個提起（特別想去Western Development 博物館）的時候，他們都很平淡的一副“哦，好吧”。然後當我告訴他們 “我們是外地來的”的時候，他們才“哦！”的恍然大悟。

敬兒
好吧，我猜那解釋了你為什麼那麼想去那。所以吶，你有何感想？

雪萊
老實說，這感覺很超現實。因為它把你置身與一個真實大小的老式小鎮。其中有些東西非常酷。我真心喜歡那個雜貨鋪。我也非常喜歡那家醫藥店，那裡面所有的分類和藏品，非常漂亮和吸引人。我認為單以聚集各色琳瑯滿目的小物件的方式來講述一個故事的這種形式很有趣。但是同時，我在想當我們走進那座巨大的，巨大的你叫它什麼來著的建築的隧道的時候。就在那個地方，就是小鎮歷史的開端，是嗎？就在歐洲人定居之後開始的,

敬兒
它以那架穀物升降機作為“定居者體驗”的開頭。

雪萊
歷史始於殖民。

敬兒
然後他們輕描淡寫的一句“原住民在這裡居住了七千年”草草了事。在那之後，才是真正的故事。對，因為它叫西方發展 （Western developments）。

雪萊
就是一個腳註。我的意思是，真的嗎？如果你真心想看這片地區的發展歷史你應該從那裡開始，就那麼一點點。拜託。

敬兒
對對。

雪萊
那有一家洗衣坊。

敬兒
呼做Wing Lee 洗衣。我們就興奮了，雪萊當時喊道：“這裡，這是我的同胞。”

雪萊
也許太過於亢奮了。因為我沒有指望到這個。

敬兒
是啊是啊，但實際上，我已經忘記那家洗衣坊的存在了。就像提到Boomtown 和 Western Development的時候，我首先想到的是鐵匠鋪，是學習和教堂之類的地方，我幾乎忘記了那有一家洗衣坊，和Boomtown 的其他許多地方一樣，那家洗衣坊幾乎沒有任何詳細描述，也沒有歷史信息或者幫你理解信息的展籤。除了RCMP皇家騎警局，名字很長，還有一家殯儀館，倒是有很多信息。

雪萊
而且非常亮堂。

敬兒
對的，非常有光澤。不過是的，洗衣坊什麼信息都沒有。就連我們在隧道遊覽的時候都討論過，說這些洗衣坊和周圍建築顯得有些格格不入，尤其是關於洗衣坊的歷史背景，以及為什麼它們會成為那麼多中國移民最終工作的地方。它們就這樣存在和被接受，就像這些洗衣坊的突然出現是由自然原因引起的一樣。

雪萊
我的意思是，我認為這些職業的出現顯然不是偶然的；它們的起源，以及為什麼會形成那樣的狀態需要很多的鋪墊解釋。就像這樣。我其實進那個洗衣坊之前很緊張，我以為那裡面會有一些稀奇古怪的亞洲西洋鏡人偶？

敬兒
機動的那種？

雪萊
謝天謝地那裡面沒有。我的意思是，如果我們仔細想想，那件洗衣坊唯一帶點亞洲韻味的地方就是招牌字體，非常刻板印象的那種。

敬兒
仿毛筆字體。

雪萊
對，筷子。還有 Wing Lee這個名字。對，就說這樣，我們的同胞就這樣。

敬兒
對， 就那樣。

雪萊
對。但話說回來，這就好像是，你沒有這種自發的想要去研究一下你缺乏的知識一樣...

敬兒
你對亞洲文化一無所知對吧？你來參觀的時候一看，啊，“中國洗衣坊”，然後就沒了。對，這也許就是大多數來訪的小孩子和普通遊客的體驗，離開的時候仍然一無所知。

雪萊
其實要把這些內容包含進去很容易。我可以給你寫一段教育性的話。對，就是這樣，而且，當時所有洗衣坊都是中國人開的，那是當時的一個經濟標誌。

敬兒
對對。 並且在當時，這是一項非常艱苦的工作；還會被人嫌棄。這些洗衣工人就像消耗品一樣被對待，就是中國移民的待遇：我們就把你扔在那，然後連考慮你都不需要。我現在回想起了這些，是因為我之前在檔案庫裡讀過相關的資料。我記得在當地歷史中看到，當時的廣告會說類似“你的衣服洗出來的顏色會比看管它們的人更白”這樣的話。然後你當時的反應是“哇......”

雪萊
就連那些老的肥皂廣告和殺蟲劑廣告，它們也一樣慘不忍睹。

敬兒
好了，時辰不早了，我們也該趁早把這期節目推向尾聲了。我們對今天的話題並沒有一個結論；因為我想我們到現在還在消化我們所經歷的這一切，對吧？

雪萊
總而言之？歷史小說。我不知道這些東西多有效，不論他們研究了多長時間。

敬兒
那麼，傳達這些信息的最佳方式是什麼？什麼是最有效的方法？比如對一群遊客來說，遊覽結束後怎樣的體驗才算得上理想？

雪萊
傳達這些信息的最佳方式？那需要：第一，使知識方便吸收；第二，不將信息繁瑣化。

敬兒 對，肯定的。 我沒有一個確切的答案。 不過我們可能在你下次來的時候再做一期節目。確切的說，明年。 非常感謝今晚參與到我的工作室。您正在收聽的是CFC Art 90.5fm的“洗衣清單”節目。我是敬兒。坐在我對面的是雪萊。別忘了下週繼續收聽我的節目。

Transcript (简体中文)

敬兒
诸位“洗衣”听众们晚上好，您正在收听的是CF90.5 “洗衣清单”，从Saskatoon，Saskachewan第六条约领土向您广播。我是你们的主持人敬儿。今天来到我们工作室的嘉宾是我的新朋友张雪莱，她是上周从多伦多来访的艺术家，说“嗨～”。 嗯，我们已经对这种（加拿大）草原地区的中国历史进行了非常全面的访问，我感觉那就是我们做的事情。

雪莱
是的，一个到目前为止信息十分丰富的入门介绍。这是我第一次来Saskatoon, 第二次来大草原。我的主要创作题材大多是回顾那些历史上曾被作为抵抗，或分享故事，或用于集会的中国场所。我总是告诉别人，我的作品旨在使我的这一次列学习研究过程显得清晰可见。Saskatoon 真的很棒，大家都那么友善。我这次做的这个艺术家驻地是AKA画廊的一部分，他们真的非常慷慨，邀请我来吸纳这里的一切，然后在二零二零年五月举办我的个展。所以，我试着在脑海中回想我们在这做过的所有事情；我们游览过Moose Jaw的隧道，参观过Western Development 博物馆，去过许多家餐馆。然后我们去过，我去过市里的大学的档案库，和当地的历史图书馆。最后我见到了你的家人。

敬兒
我爸爸拍了个自拍。然后我们去了Mackenzie画廊。

雪莱
我们得以访问在Regina的Mackenzie画廊，遇见了许多当地相当有天赋的艺术家及其他。我非常高兴我们一起去了隧道，使得这次经历变得这么有意义；比如说这是我第一次来这种规模的小镇，不好意思，是城市-这样如此具有丰富历史的城市。然而这是你第二次穿隧道，因为你小时候曾经跟家里人一起去过。

敬兒
对啊对啊，就好像是：如果不是因为这次和你在一起的特定机会，我估计不会再故地重游了。因为这不仅仅是单纯的旅游观光，而是我换了一个视角。这一次，我的感受是：第一，这次重游像是接受拷问；第二，这个水稻的内容；第三，观众怎样接受这些内容。

雪莱
所以，也许每个人都知道这些隧道游览，但是游览的本身就是Moose Jaw的这些隧道，我知道的去过Moose Jaw的人都对隧道非常熟悉，但是他们提供量大主要游览项目；其中一个大致是关于Al Caplone的历史，他其实从未在Moose Jaw居住过，我不认为但是这是一种类似禁令的行事方式。也许这就是用于走私盗版酒的隧道。另一个我们参观过的项目被称为“财富大道”。它所讲述的，是早期中国殖民者的虚构故事，以及他们在这些Moose Jaw的隧道中所可能受到的遭遇。因此，我的意思是，相较于多伦多而言，大草原有着丰厚悠久的中国历史，你懂的。它很不同，因为很多事都发生在世纪交接的时刻，就像我来这里所接触到的信息一样，穿越了50余年，因此，这些隧道需要慢慢品味消化。

敬兒
我现在还在消化。

雪莱
我的意思是，让我们从最开始回忆。我们刚刚赶上（那次游览）。太好了，

敬兒: 他们在那个像大厅的地方摇大铃铛。

雪莱
然后他，我们的导游，他事前跟我们交代了很多东西，总的来说，在这次游览体验里面，我们扮演的就是当年在先生那里打工的中国工人。

敬兒
是Burrows先生，他经营洗衣生意，他动用廉价劳动力，专招那些来到这里还需要为移民还债的中国人。这里面有很多的历史，他们（Burrows先生）说的好像永远被困在这地方是件好事一样。不过对的，我们的游览团扮演的是一群中国新移民。

雪莱
导游向我们叙述并且情景化了所有序幕，我们所使用的语言都是过时的。就在这里，我们都是一群在洗衣房打工的苦力（coolie)；我们就在这种角色扮演游戏下走过隧道，有让我惊叹“哇塞”的一幕是当导游打开一道秘密暗门的时候；据说那就是苦力们工作的地方。我们一边游览一边听讲解，真的非常复杂，所有道具都制作的非常精致，有很多可能还是当年用过的真品？

敬兒
對，完全是。而且我感覺就像穿越時空一樣，到那個“你們都是苦力”的年代；就像是我們就要以這種歧視貶低的方式跟你們說話，因為我們想讓你體驗一下做一個二十世紀初中國移民的感覺。不過在我們那個有10或12個遊客的遊覽團裡面，有五個是亞裔的，我想。 对，完全是。而且我感觉就像穿越时空一样。到那个“你们都是苦力”的年代；就像是我们就要以这种歧视贬低的方式跟你们说话，因为我们想让你体验一下做一个二十世纪初中国移民的感觉。不过在我们那个有10或12个游客的游览团里面，有五个是亚裔的，我想。 雪莱 四到五个

敬兒
每个人都是54岁以上，其余所有人都有白头发而且是白人。所以，看到这个年轻的白人导游，用这样的语言向这群以白人中老年人为主的游览团说话，对于我们两个来说，这样真的让人觉得舒服吗？嘿，就像，

雪莱
我的意思是，这感觉很奇怪，因为我从来没被叫过“苦力”。因为那是很过时的语言，并且不是现在用来贬低东亚人的脏话，但你知道，当时觉得奇怪现在还是觉得奇怪。

敬兒
对，绝对的。

雪莱
但这次游览仍然令人期待，而且感觉因为年代变得更加沉重。而且，你知道，游览团里有一个年纪大的东亚女人，我总是好奇：1，她为什么参加这个游览；2，他有什么样的感觉？但是总而言之，我不得不说他们是全力打造历史信息再现。对，像这种秘密暗门，历史小说式的叙事方式，的确颇具娱乐性；他们真的做了很多研究。比如，我们在探讨‘coolie’这个单词到底是什么样的，它曾经是“苦力”的英译，在普通话里意为痛苦的力量；就像克服一切苦难一样。不过被变成了一种用于侮辱的诽谤。

敬兒
是的，这一点我不知道，所以我在学习。我仍在这次游览中学习，这点很酷。不过还是觉得很超现实。

雪莱
这绝对是为白人观众而创的，是一种同情的视角。让我们谈谈游览最后的那个人。

敬兒
因为在游览结束后，回到车里，我们脑海里还有太多问题。在你游览过所有展品之后，在游览结束的时候，你走过了一间洗衣房，一个厨房，一个所谓的移民局，和很多类似的东西，当你终于走到尽头的时候，啊，还有一个鸦片馆。也是宿舍。所以在整个游览途中，他们在讲故事，但与此同时他们也试图向你粗略的提供当时的政治政策和历史背景。但在最后，他们问“有什么问题吗？”的时候，有一个人说：“那些中国人其实不是被迫住在这个隧道里的吧？他们完全可以上去到其他地方找工作。他们喜欢呆在这下面。”

雪莱
这是第一个问题。对，而且我不知道改作何感想，我的意思是，我们好奇。但我也很好奇这些人为什么来参加这个游览。

敬兒
是的，你知道的，在整个游览过程中，游客们各种“哦～”各种“啊～”的唏嘘。时不时拿着这些历史游览叙事说笑。我的第一个问题，说得好听一些，可以总结为：这类历史叙事有多成功？我不认为中国人曾住在这些隧道里，因为没有确切证据，而且隧道也不是为此目的而建造的。现在的话题更倾向于证明“中国苦力因为地标恶劣的环境被迫躲藏于这样的地下场所”这一假设的合理性。

是的，我认为导游曾经说过这些隧道其实是为蒸汽维修工人建的，比如为城市供暖的锅炉引擎之类的东西。他们只是在后来发现了一些其他用途。就像这些虚构的人物，比如Burrows先生，还有那些拥有商铺的人心想：“哦，我可以得到廉价劳动力并且可以把他们藏起来，因为现在没人想看中国人。”然后，某些游客从这个故事中学到的唯一道理就是“哦，没人逼他们留在下面，他们自愿选择待在那。”我想知道那个人是怎么想的，他可能认为这些导游太竭力的想塑造一个博人同情的故事，他们想要创造被害者的形象，然而在观众眼中当今的中国人并不是这种形象。仔细想想，这种“历史再现”中有多少成分是真实的？因为这个故事显得很俗气，观众们在游览结束后是会感觉自己上了一堂历史课，还是看了个笑话？

雪莱
而且此后我一直在认真思考，现在我们有了几天的时间来斟酌酝酿这件事，比如从他（导游）的视角中迫使出了什么，因为我觉得总是有这么一层因素：政治可信度。当你试图让白人观众相信一份生活经历，但你单纯向他们口述，而不解和你的真实生活经历，这使人就连想打同情牌都难。所以当他说“迫使”，他一定指的是当时的法律正则逼迫苦力们到地下的，或者。。。

敬兒
就像这样想：这是一群活人，被拖到地下，然后被层层暗门守着；想想，在他（导游）的心目中，也许他在把这件事同奴隶贩卖之类的事相较。这本身不是一件那么坏的事，因为他并不具备理解这件事情的文化知识背景。这就有点像当你试图解释种族主义的微侵略的时候，总有一些人会说：“啊，你也许太钻字眼了”之类的话。也许他们是一样的感受，也许我们在过于纠结这段历史的时候把这件事夸大的比真实历史更糟糕。

雪莱
我认为这就是我们之间的差异：我们去游览的目的的差异，和我们对故事的接受程度的差异。就比如说我们有这样的一个构想：当年的环境那么恶劣，恶劣到在这个虚构作品的世界中形成了一股让人别无他选的势力。但对于他（导游）来说，那是一种自主的选择。

敬兒
对对，肯定的。不论他们想描绘怎样的一幅画面，不论他们在整个游览途中讲了多少糟糕的故事，这仍然没有在情感层面上击中要害：比如你会作何反应，如果你活在那个年代你会有什么感想。

雪莱
而且那隧道里面的秀太神奇了，因为那是个那么簇拥紧凑的小街角，对，我们当时就正对着当年那修好的铁路。然后我记得当时我们特别想看街对面的遗址，现在被改造成Capone的私人酒店了。_笑_

对的，第一大街。那就是我特别想让你去参观的地方，因为那里就是发生“那一件”最高法院案件的加拿大最高法院；那个案件首先是由Saskatchewan法院审查，然后上诉到加拿大最高法院。基本上讲，在1912年的时候Saskatchewan省颁发了一到法令，规定中国人，日本人，和东亚人，我记得当时应该是统称的东方人种，是不能雇佣白人女性工作的。当然，这是在加拿大慢慢有了足够规模的能增场运转的中国企业的时候。而且我应该提到，在那个时候这里几乎是没有中国女人的；我记得在人口普查上只记在了一到两个。

敬兒
都是因为“移民法案”对吗？

雪莱
是的。你不能带家人过来。所以说，当时有很多白人女性也正在找工作用以谋生。这一案例的惊人之处在于Quong Wing极力反对这一法令，将它上诉到了加拿大最高法院。他的论点基本上是表明他是皇室归化的英国共鸣，因为当时加拿大国籍还不存在；所以，他以“白纸黑字证明我不属于你们划分的这一种中国佬”的理由向这一立法提出挑战。但后来法院还是以4票对1票的结果把他归结为“中国佬”，因为他们是以种族而不是以国籍来划分的。所以，我真的很同情这个人，他走到这一步，他上诉，它开启了自己的事业，但他却被告知“你永远不会被视作平等”。很有意思的是：在这个案例中，”白人“这个词被首次使用。而且那两个被Quong Wing雇佣的女人，我想说她们分别是俄罗斯裔和德裔；但她们并没有被规划为“白人”，因为只有英裔和法裔的白人才会被认可为“白人”。

敬兒
对，比如（来自于）西欧大陆的。

雪莱
所以这项法令变得非常复杂。而且我们在游览中了解到这法令知道四十年代的时候才被废除。

敬兒
或者像他们说的，69年左右。是的，这很有意思，因为他们说理发师在Saskatchewan省执行的，然后有一些日裔和其他东亚的企业主上诉到省法院说：“嘿，把我们从这个归类中去掉，你们这样做不行”。于是，他们才把法令取消；但是“中国佬”们仍然被这条法令压制到69年左右，对，就像你说的。

雪莱
我还查了查人口普查，当时这一代有一位日裔的企业主。所以我猜是他起的诉。

敬兒
他就说“你没问题”，对。

雪莱: 我的意思是，這很了不起。這樣一群企業主團結起來對抗這樣法令，因為上訴最高法院需要花很多的財力和其他資源，而且花了那麼長的時間。

敬兒
对，我也记得在游览结束的时候，就在游客们问问题的时候，我不记得具体的问题，还是一些关于法律之类的事。当时就有人窃窃私语道：“哈哈，被一个中国的人雇佣的下场不会太好。”所以从某种意义上讲，世态一点都没变。

雪莱:
所以，你什么都没学到吗？

敬兒
明摆着，就像这样，有太多东西是根深蒂固的，是吗？

这些人到底有多么。。。你看，一整下午，经过了一个多小时的历史游览，了解了那么多挣扎，然后他们就这样；我知道，人只有在类似这样的情况下才显露出他们的本色。

雪莱
我們也想過，好，這是我們在車上討論過的問題裡我最喜歡的一個：如果我們倆來申請這份工作，我們能得到 我们也想过，好，这是我们在车上讨论过的问题里我最喜欢的一个：如果我们俩来申请这份工作，我们能得到这职位吗？我是说当这里的导游？那会有怎样的反响？如果我们第一：叫白人观众“苦力”；第二，如果由我们来传达这些信息，对吧，那样的效果会更好吗？还是说会遭到更多的地处？会不会显得很气势汹汹？对，到底有没有这个可能性？

敬兒
对啊，他们会聘用我们吗？我们在考虑，我们想知道：这昂的历史重述是否可行。因为他们会说：“哦，这是我们Saskachewan省历史上可耻的时刻。” 但这就像，如果你对自己说这样的话，并且称为转述这些故事的人，那么它就像在某种程度上减轻了伤害，对吗？换个角度，如果换成我来说“这是你们历史上可耻的一刻”的话，他们就会觉得这是在针对他们，对吧？他们能够接受我们对他们说这样的话吗？还是说我们的白人同胞们只愿意从其他白人哪里听取这类意见？

雪莱
也就是说，这是白人盟友的功劳吗？

敬兒
对，但是，这些就是他们应该做的吗？仔细想想这些故事的叙述和接受方式，这样做真的有效吗？这样能改变些什么？这样做击中了哪些要害？我不知道。然后再考虑下，你在经历了整个可怕的，这个发生在一个世纪前，关于充满种族歧视的移民法的故事之后，再想想当今的移民状况：比如现在我们国家关系到移民啊，难民啊，工作签证啊之类的法律。他们会从这两者之间联想到当今的移民法仍然由多么糟糕吗？也许不会。就像从白人的角度来看，白人观众会很轻易的说：“这是我们过去的污点，不过这些都过去了，而且这些都早已结束了。”

雪莱
我想这也就是其中的问题所在。为什么在多元文化主义法案成立后的加拿大那么喜欢自我安慰自我表扬？对，这些故事被贬作历史。我们活在历史中而不是成为历史的一部分，就像我们当今所面对的各种压迫都溯源与历史一样。我们只需要看看我们国界南边的状况。。。等等，其实我们根本不需要往国界以南看，就说这里，加拿大境内。加拿大有历史，而且当今的时间正在发生着。你懂的，昨天是七月四日，遍地虚伪横行；相较于关押满孩子的集中营，人们更不满于由黑人演员饰演的Ariel（迪士尼小美人鱼）。我不知道，（要向世界和平可能还要等个）100年或更久。你最近发表了一些关于七月一日和耻辱日的杰作，这是一个再好不过的星期来发表这一类似的东西，因为这是由其充满爱国精神的一周。

敬兒
啊，对，完全的。我也是在“加拿大日”的周末之后才最近了解到“耻辱日”，这就像当时在作为的“自治领日”，如今叫“加拿大日”的当天，就制定了“排他法案”时一样。这很矛盾，就像现在举国上下庆祝“加拿大日”，但与此同时忽视历史上同一天发生的丑恶的事，就和所有殖民主义国家一样。我在想的是，为什么，在“耻辱日”发生的这时候，加拿大华人社区的态度是：“我们不庆祝这一天，这个歧视种族的，虚伪的国家。”如果这件事情被遗忘的话，今后的亚裔加拿大人便会说“哇！我们都不知道这一段历史”从而加入这样的“庆祝”。对，这些发生的很恰时机，就像我刚了解了“耻辱日”，紧接着第二天就去游览隧道而且了解更多这方面的历史一样。

雪莱
然后今天，我们确立Western Development博物馆。

敬兒
对我们去了。

雪莱
这挺搞笑的，因为我觉得当我向每一个提起（特别想去Western Development博物馆）的时候，他们都很平淡的一副“哦，好吧”。然后当我告诉他们“我们是外地来的”的时候，他们才“哦！”的恍然大悟。

敬兒
好吧，我猜那解释了你为什么那么想去那。所以呐，你有何感想？

雪莱
老实说，这感觉很超现实。因为它把你置身于一个真实大小的老式小镇。其中有些东西非常酷。我真心喜欢那个杂货铺。我也非常喜欢那家医药店，那里面所有的分类和藏品，非常漂亮和吸引人。我认为单以聚集各色琳琅满目的小物件的方式来讲述一个故事的这种形式很有趣。但是同时，我在想当我们走进那座巨大的，巨大的你叫它什么来着的建筑的隧道的时候。就在那个地方，就是小镇历史的开端，是吗？就在欧洲人定居之后开始的。

敬兒
它以那架谷物升降机作为“定居者体验”的开头。

雪莱
历史始于殖民。

敬兒
然后他们轻描淡写的一句“原住民在这里居住了七千年”草草了事。在那之后，才是真正的故事。对，因为它叫西方发展（Western developments）。

雪莱
就是一个脚注。我的意思是，真的吗？如果你真心想看这片地区的发展历史你应该从那里开始，就那么一点点。拜托。

敬兒
对，对。

雪莱
那有一家洗衣房。

敬兒 叫做Wing Lee 洗衣。我们就兴奋了，雪莱当时喊道：“这里，这是我的同胞。”

雪莱
也许太过于亢奋了。因为我没有指望到这个。

敬兒
是啊是啊，但实际上，我已经忘记那家洗衣房的存在了。就像提到Boomtown 和 Western Development的时候，我首先想到的是铁匠铺，是学习和教堂之类的地方，我几乎忘记了那有一家洗衣房，和Boomtown的其他许多地方一样，那家洗衣房几乎没有任何详细描述，也没有历史信息或者帮你理解的信息展签。除了RCMP皇家骑警局，名字很长，还有一家殡仪馆，倒是有很多信息。

雪莱
而且非常亮堂。

敬兒
对的，非常有光泽。不过是的，洗衣房什么信息都没有。就连我们在隧道游览的时候都讨论过，说这些洗衣房和周围建筑显得有些格格不入，尤其是关于洗衣房的历史背景，以及为什么它们会成为那么多中国移民最终工作的地方。他们就这样存在和被接受，就像这些洗衣房的突然出现是由自然原因引起的一样。

雪莱
我的意思是，我认为这些职业的出现显然不是偶然的；它们的起源，以及为什么会形成那样的状态需要很多的铺垫解释。就像这样。我其实进那个洗衣房之前很紧张，我以为那里面会有一些稀奇古怪的亚洲西洋镜人偶？

敬兒
机动的那种？

雪莱
谢天谢地那里面没有。我的意思是，如果我们仔细想想，那件洗衣房唯一带点亚洲韵味的地方就是招牌字体，非常刻板印象的那种。

敬兒
仿毛笔字体。

雪莱
对，筷子。还有Wing Lee这个名字。对，就说这样，我们的同胞就这样。

敬兒
对，就那样。

雪莱
对。但话说回来，这就好像是，你没有这种自发的想要去研究一下你缺乏的知识一样。。。

敬兒
你对亚洲文化一无所知对吧？你来参观的时候一看，啊，“中国洗衣房”，然后就没了。对，这也许就是大多数来访的小孩子和普通游客的体验，离开的时候仍然一无所知。

雪莱
其实要把这些内容包含进去很容易。我可以给你写一段教育性的话。对，就是这样，而且，当时所有洗衣房都是中国人开的，那是当时的一个经济标志。

敬兒
对对。 并且在当时，这是一项非常艰苦的工作；还会被人嫌弃。这些洗衣工人就像消耗品一样被对待，就是中国移民的待遇：我们就把你仍在那，然后连考虑你都不需要。我现在回想起了这些，是因为我之前在档案库里读过相关的资料。我记得在当地历史中看到，当时的广告会说类似“你的衣服洗出来的颜色会比看管他们的人更白”这样的话。然后你当时的反应是“哇。。。”

雪莱
就连那些老得肥皂广告和杀虫剂广告，他们也一样惨不忍睹。 敬兒 好了，时辰不早了，我们也该趁早把这期节目推向尾声了。我们对今天的话题并没有一个结论；因为我想我们到现在还在消化我们所经历的这一切，对吧？

雪莱
总而言之？历史小说。我不知道这些东西多有效，不论他们研究了多长时间。

敬兒
那么，传达这些信息的最佳方式是什么？什么是最有效的方法？比如对一群游客来说，游览结束后怎样的体验才算得上理想？

雪莱
传达这些信息的最佳方式？那需要：第一，使只是方便吸收；第二，不将信息繁琐化。

敬兒
对，肯定的。 我没有一个确切的答案。 不过我们可能在你下次来的时候，在做一期节目，明年。

非常感谢今晚参与到我的工作室。您正在收听的是CFC Art 90.5fm 的“洗衣清单”节目。我是敬兒。坐在我对面的是雪莱。别忘了下周继续收听我的节目。

Transcript (English)

Respectfulchild
Good evening laundry listeners. You're tuned in to the Laundry List on CF 90.5. FM broadcast to you from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan on treaty six territory. Tonight, I'm your host Gan. And I'm joined in studio with my new-ish friend Shellie, who's an artist that's been visiting from Toronto for the last week. Hi, hiiiii

Um, and we had a very thorough visit of the Chinese history on the prairies kind of is what it we feel like we did.

Shellie
Yeah, an introduction to it that's been really loaded so far. So, this is my first time to Saskatoon in my second time to the prairies. And my practice has a lot to do with revisiting Chinese spaces that have historically been used as sites of resistance, sites of shared stories, just sites of congregation. And I always tell people, what my practice aims to do is just basically make my process of learning these things really visible in a clear way. So, Saskatoon was really fantastic. Everybody's been so friendly. This residency that I'm doing is part of AKA gallery, which they've been really generous, inviting me to come and sort of soak everything in, and then mount an exhibition in May 2020. So, I'm just trying to think off the top of my head, all the things we've done, we've done these tunnel tours in Moose Jaw, we have gone to the Western Development Museum, we've gone to several restaurants. And we've gone to, I've gone to the archives at the University at the city, and the local history library, and then I met your family.

Respectfulchild
My dad took a selfie. And we got to visit like the Mackenzie Gallery.

Shellie
We got to visit the Mackenzie Gallery in Regina, met some like super talented local artists and whatnot. And I'm so glad that we went to the tunnels together because what was so great about this experience, like it's my first time to a town or excuse me, a city this size. And that has such a complicated history. And it was your second time going through the tunnel cause you went with your family as a kid.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, yeah. And it was like, it's something that I probably wouldn't have gone back to if it hadn't been for this specific opportunity with you. Because it's not just like a tourist thing. It's like, I'm putting on a different lens. This time, I'm thinking about like being more interrogated of like, the tour, what's in it, how people are like receiving it and stuff like that.

Shellie
So, for maybe everybody knows about the tour, but the tour itself is that these tunnels of Moose Jaw tour, and everybody I know who's been to Moose Jaw is quite familiar with them. But they offer two main tours. So, one is like a history of sort of Al Capone who never actually lived in Moose Jaw, I don't think but it's a sort of prohibition kind of approach to it. Maybe this is where like bootleg liquor was put through the tunnels. And then the other one that we did was called "Passage to Fortune". And it talks about, it's a fictionalized account of early Chinese settlers, and the conditions that they were potentially subjected to in these tunnels in Moose Jaw. And so, I mean, the prairies have a really rich Chinese history, you know, from being from Toronto. It's so different, because a lot of it is sort of at the turn of the century where like, the material I come across here is, is so much like, extends like another 50 years. So, these tunnels were, it was a lot to digest.

Respectfulchild
I'm still digesting.

Shellie
I mean, let's start with the beginning. We got there just on time. Yes,

Respectfulchild
They rang this big bell in the like lobby.

Shellie
And him the tour, the tour guide, he was like he prefaced a lot of things. So, the experience of the tour was we were the Chinese workers who were indentured to Mr.

Respectfulchild
Mr. Burrows, who runs like the laundry business, and it was just like, I'll take cheap, labour and all these Chinese immigrants that now have to pay off debt for coming here. There was so much like history that they actually stuck in there was good. But yeah, the tour group was the group of new like Chinese immigrants.

Shellie
The tour guide prefaced all this for us and contextualized things and then so he's, he's sort of like, the terminology we're doing is out-dated. But here it is. So you're all a bunch of coolies and you're gonna work in this laundry and then we sort of walk through it yeah and the part that I kind of had a whoa moment was this he opens this like secret door where workers supposedly worked and then we walked through it yeah like listen to this and it was so complicated like there's so much, the props were so decorative yeah very possibly used?

Respectfulchild
Yeah totally. And I think a like it's going back on like how they call we're just like "you are coolies" and like, we're gonna and we're going to talk to you and like really like, like discriminatory derogatory ways, because we want you to experience what it felt like to be a Chinese, like immigrant in the early 1900's. Yeah. And yet this group of tours, like our tour group was like maybe 10 or 12 people. And there were five of us that were Asian, I think.

Shellie
four or five

Respectfulchild
Everyone was at least over like 54. And everyone else had white hair and was like a white person. So, like the way that even just seeing that have like a what a young white tour guide speaking to a mostly group of like, white seniors using this kind of terminology. Like did it sit really comfortably for the two of us? Hey, like,

Shellie
I mean, it's weird because like, I've never been called a coolie. Because it's very antiquated language that isn't the slur use for East Asians now, but you know, what's weird is that it still feels weird.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, totally.

Shellie
It still feels awaited. It's almost like it feels weighted with age. And, and you know, there was like, a really a much older East Asian woman there. And I always just sort of like, I was so curious A) why she came on the tour and then B) how this is like, how this feels for her. Yeah. And, like, I really do have to say they chalked it full of historical information. Yeah, with this kind of secret tunnel, historical fiction narrative to it. So, with this, like very entertainment aspect, they really did a lot of research. Like, we were kind of talking about how the word coolie even like, it used to be a terminology for like 苦力, which is like, bitter, bitter strength in Mandarin. Just like working through all the hardships. And yeah, that got in turn developed into, like a slur.

Respectfulchild
Yeah. Which I didn't know. So, like, I was learning. I was still learning things on the tour, which is cool. But it was, it was still surreal.

Shellie
It was definitely developed for a white audience, like sort of sympathy vein. Let's talk about that guy at the end of the tour. Yeah.

Respectfulchild
Well, because like we had so many questions in the car after this. So, like, yeah, there was like, at the very end of the tour after you've gone through all these things. So, you go through a laundry, you go through a kitchen, you go through it a quote unquote, immigration office, like all these things, and then you finally get to the it. Oh, and an opium den. Yes. And they're living quarters. Yeah. And so like, all throughout this, they're telling stories, but also trying to give you history of like, government policies and like historical context of the time very roughly. And at the very end, they're like, does anyone have any questions? And there's one guy is just like, so the Chinese weren't actually forced to live down in these tunnels, like they could have gone up and like gotten jobs elsewhere. They just like stayed down here.

Shellie
This is question number one. Yeah. And I didn't know how to feel about I mean, I was so curious. Again, I was so curious about why these people were on the tour.

Respectfulchild
and yeah, and throughout the whole, you know, tour, they were kind of like oooing and ahhing and oohing. Chuckling sometimes at the at the stories and history that was being told in them that this is the first question that gets asked and I guess this is kind of like a nice summative question to like, how successful is these historical narrative things? Because like, there isn't solid proof that I don't think the Chinese lived in those tunnels. The tunnels weren't built for that purpose. Now is more of a conversation of like the hostile environment which showed bad that it makes sense why people would be literally driven underground into like these areas of hiding.

Yeah, I think he said those like the tour guide said those tunnels were actually built just for like, people who were tending to like the steam. Yeah, boiler engines and stuff like for heating the city. Yeah. And then they just found like another use. Yes. From like these quotes like from these fictional characters like Mr. Burrows, like people who own shops that were like, Oh, I can get cheap labor and I can hide them away, because no one wants to see any Chinese people right now. And then, and then the only kind of like, meaning that this that these that this person on this tour got was like, Oh, no one was forcibly keeping them down there. They just chose it on their own to stay down there. I wonder if he's feeling like, they're trying too hard to play up a sympathy story, you know, trying to be like, are they trying to be victims when he probably doesn't see Chinese people that way now, something like that, you know, and like, thinking about, yeah, how much of this re-enactment? Because it's, it's, it feels so yeah, hokey or like, cheesy, then you're like, do they come away from this historical lesson just kind of being like, that was funny.

Shellie
It's also, I've been really thinking about afterwards, now that we've had a few days for this to marinate, like what constitutes forced from his perspective, because I think there's always this. This like politic of believability. When you try to convince white audiences of a lived experience, it's sort of like, I'm telling you this, but without the grounding of, say, your lived experience, it's hard to even play that sympathy card. So, does forced mean for him like, it has to be legislated that they're all forced underground, or

Respectfulchild
like, there's like a physical person, like pulling people down there and like, guarding doors and stuff like that, like thinking, like maybe in his mind, he's only comparing it to like the slave trade. Yeah, or something. And like, it wasn't that bad. And yeah, he has no context for understanding it. Kind of like, if you try to explain like, microaggressions of racism, if some, someone will be like, Oh, yeah, you're probably reading into that or something. And like, they maybe he feels the same way of being like, maybe you're we're reading into this history and making it worse than it actually was.

Shellie
I think that's kind of where like this level of difference between, like, our intention to go to this is and also our reception, because it's sort of like, I don't know, we have this like idea that, like, the hostile environment was so bad and that constitutes a forced thing in this in this fictionalized work. Yeah. But to him, that was perceived as a choice.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, yeah, totally. So it just like it didn't, no matter how much of a picture they tried to paint through, like, because we told a lot of really awful stories, like along the tour, and it still doesn't quite hit home on like that emotional level of like, how you how you react, how you how we like the feelings you would have living in that time. Yeah.

Shellie
And the show the tunnels were so amazing, because like, it's such a loaded little street corner, right, like we are right across from the railway that was built. And we were also across from this site that I really wanted to see which is now Capone's Hideaway Hotel laughs

Yeah. Number one main street. Yeah. So that particular site is something that I really want you to visit because it's the site of the Supreme Court case that went to the Supreme Court of Canada, it first went to the court of Saskatchewan, and then was on appeal and brought to the Supreme Court of Canada. But basically, in 1912, there was like this legislation passed in Saskatchewan, that Chinese, Japanese and East Asian, I think the word they might have used is just Orientals, could not hire white women to be employed at their establishment. So, this is like slowly when there are enough Chinese businesses says that, you know, you can actually work together a bit more. And I should also mention, at this time, there were like barely any Chinese women I think the census I'd like two or one.

Respectfulchild
because of all the like Immigration Act right?

Shellie
Right. You cannot bring your family over. And so, at this time, like a lot of white women were also looking for work, so trying to get some form of income. But this particular case was amazing because Quong Wing fought against this appeal, brought it to the Supreme Court of Canada and was his argument was basically he was a naturalized British citizen under the Crown, because there was no Canadian citizenship at that time. And so, he's sorts of like I don't fall under this category of chinaman, which is, which is actually sorry, what it said on the paper. Yeah. And the Supreme Court voted four to one that he was still considered under the umbrella of a chinaman, because it is a distinguishment based on race and not by nationality. So, I mean, I really feel for this guy, he gets to this point, he appeals that he starts his own business and, and then he's still told, you will never be seen as an equal. Yeah. And it's also really interesting, because it was like one of the first cases where the word white was used. And the two women who were employed were, I want to say Russian and possibly German. And they didn't fall under the definition of white in the same way, either, because it was like only British and French.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, like Western continental Europe.

Shellie
So, it got so it got really complicated. And we learned this on the tour that that wasn't revoked until like the 40s.

Respectfulchild
Or they said, 69'. Yeah, that was like, that was really interesting when they said that legislation was like, put in place in Saskatchewan, and then the Japanese and other like East Asian, maybe like business owners or something, went to the Provincial Court and said, "Hey, take us off this or like, this isn't okay". So, they got removed, but chinaman stuck until like, yeah, 69 Yeah, you're right.

Shellie
And I looked at the census, and there was one Japanese business owner in the area. And so, it was him, I guess.

Respectfulchild
He was just like you're okay. Yeah.

Shellie
I mean, it's, it's so great. Because like a bunch of these business owners got together like it took it takes money to bring this appeal to higher courts and whatnot. And it took so it took so long.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, I just remembered too like, at the end of the tour, when people are asking questions, there was, I forget the question, but it was like something about that legislation again. And then someone just kind of muttered, like, "haha, well wouldn't be good to be employed by a Chinese person." And it was like, okay, so in a way, things haven't actually changed.

Shellie
So, did you learn nothing?

Respectfulchild
Like, they it was, it was just like, there's just so much that's ingrained, right?

And like, how much can Yeah, an afternoon, an hour-ish long tour of like, history really, like challenged that kind of stuff? Just like you're like, I know that. Like, people just really reveal themselves and like moments like that. Sure. Yeah.

Shellie
We were also wondering, okay, this is my favourite question from the car. If we applied for jobs, could we, like work at this place? And as a tour guide? Yeah. And how would that be received? If we were, like, A) calling white audiences coolies. And then B) if we were the ones dishing this information, right, like, would that be more effective? Would it just come across more resistance? Would we would it be seen as aggressive? Yeah, would it even be possible?

Respectfulchild
Yeah. Would they hire us? Yeah. Because like, yeah, we were thinking, we're wondering, like, if the way that this, these kinds of stories are retold. Because they like to say, Oh, this is an embarrassing moment in Saskatchewan history. But it's like, if you get to say that about yourself, and you get to be the one that tells the story, then it gets to, like lessen the blow in a way, right? Whereas like, if I was saying, like to them, like, this is an embarrassing moment in your history, they would feel way more targeted, right? They're like, Oh, and like, it's, it's like, would they be receptive to hearing that from us? Or does it have our white people only willing to hear it from other white people?

Shellie
Is that like, the labor of the white ally?

Respectfulchild
Yeah. Is that what they're supposed to do? But then yeah, thinking about the way that it was received, being like, was this effective? Or does this does this change anything? Does this hit anything home? I don't know. And then also thinking, yeah, after you go through this whole story, that's about like, a terrible story of like, really racist immigration legislation from like, basically more than a century ago. But then thinking about like the current state of immigration, like laws in our country now and for both for immigration and for like refugees and for like working visas and all that stuff. And being like, do they draw any connection to how bad it is now? And probably not. It's like, it's easy when it's from written from a white perspective for white audience to say this was like a stain on our past, but it's on are in the past, and it's over.

Shellie
And I guess that's the problem with it too. Is that like post multiculturalism act Canada is so Pat itself on the back? Yeah. And the stories are relegated as history. And living in the history instead of part of this, like, lineage of different forms of oppression that people face. Like, we just look to the south of the border, actually, you know, we don't even have to look south to the border. It's happening here. Canada has that history here. And it has that current time here. Yeah. You know, yesterday was just the Fourth of July. Hypocrisy is raining rampant. People are more upset about Black Ariel than they are about, like concentration camps with kids. Yeah, totally. I don't know. 100 years or more. You posted something great recently about July 1 and Humiliation day and even things like that which were so, it was kind of a perfect week to go because it was like, a particularly patriotic week.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It was like right after Canada Day weekend. And me just like, I actually just like more recently learning about Humiliation day, which is like when the Exclusion Act was like put in place like right on Dominion day, as it was called then. But like Canada Day now. And so, it's just like, so weird both for, like, for any celebrations of Canada today, because it's always like, it just ignores all of like, the bad history that we have on this, like settler colonial country. But even for me thinking about like, how, at the time that humiliation day happened, like, the Chinese Canadian community was like, well, we're not celebrating this, like, racist, fake country. But then now it if that gets forgotten, then like, Chinese Canadians are just like, whoo, we don't even know that history. We're gonna, like partake in this kind of stuff. So, it was very timely. Yeah, to like that happening and then like, going to the tunnels like the very next day, and learning about all that kind of stuff.

Shellie
And then we went, today, we went to the Western Development Museum.

Respectfulchild
We did.

Shellie
It's so funny, cause I feel like everybody that we've been telling, they're like, oh, okay, and then we preface it. We're like, I'm from out of town. And they're like, ohhhhh.

Respectfulchild
like, Okay, I guess I guess that still makes more sense to why you would want to go there. Yeah. What did you think?

Shellie
I mean, it's just surreal. It's surreal when you're like, they're in a life-size old-fashioned town. Yeah. I mean, some other stuff they had was really cool. I really liked the general store. And I really liked the I guess, the medicine place. It's just the, the organization and the categorization of all these things a collection Yeah, is pretty is pretty appealing. I think it's really interesting how you can bring these things together to provide a story just from oddities. But it was also, I mean, I think of like when we walked out into that great tunnel of a or that great, what would you call that that great, like, vast area building. And it sort of starts history at a particular point, right? It starts history after like, Europeans have settled,

Respectfulchild
It starts, it prefaces as the "settler experience" in like the shape of like, a grain elevator

Shellie
History starts with colonization.

Respectfulchild
And they just have like, maybe like a panel that glosses over being like, Indigenous peoples have lived here for thousands of centuries. And then now the story starts. Yeah, it's called Western developments.

Shellie
It's a footnote. I mean, really, that's where the history if you're really going to look at the history of the development of this area, we're on, yeah, that's where you should start. Yeah, but no.

Respectfulchild
yeah, yeah.

Shellie
There was a laundry.

We got so excited. called Wing Lee Laundry and Shellie just yelled "this is, this is my people".

Maybe a bit too ecstatically. I wasn't I just wasn't expecting anything.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And actually, I had forgotten that that was there. Like when I think of Boomtown and Western Development, I think of like the blacksmith and I think of like the school and the church and stuff but I even forgot that like the laundry was there but we did notice how almost all of like the places in Boomtown had like no real description, or like any history kind of like placards to like kind of aid you in understanding that part. Except for the RCMP. It was a, it's a longer name, but like our RNWMP or something, and, and the funeral home, which had a lot of information.

Shellie
and was very brightly lit.

Respectfulchild
Yeah. So, like glossy. But yeah, the laundry had nothing. And we were talking about this even at the at the tunnel tour to how it didn't really situate, like specifically laundry in like that historical context of why that became the place where so many Chinese immigrants ended up working, right. And they just kind of like it just gets an accept, becomes an accepted thing be like, Oh, yeah, they were just there. It's like a natural cause or something.

Shellie
I mean, I think these like, these occupations are obviously not coincidental, and it could have used quite a bit of a preface for it in terms of why it's, it's like that. I was so nervous that we would walk in and see like, Asian weird diorama mannequin?

Respectfulchild
Animatronic?

Shellie
Thank God, that wasn't there. Yeah. I mean, if we really think about it, the only marker of like, Asianness in that set was the font, it was like the typical

Respectfulchild
Brush stroke font

Shellie
Yeah, chopstick. Yeah. And then Wing Lee. Yeah. And so that is, those are our people.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, that was it.

Shellie
Yeah. But like, again, it's sort of like if you didn't have this self-initiated knowledge that you had to go search...

Respectfulchild
You don't know any of that. Right? You just be like, oh, Chinese laundry. Okay. Yeah. And that's what probably so many, like young kids and just like visitors in general to that kind of place. That's the kind of thing they walk away with.

Shellie
It would be so easy just to include. I will write it for you a paragraph didactic. Yeah, that is. And also, it was a staple in the economy. Yeah. All laundries were run by Chinese people.

Respectfulchild
Yeah. Yeah.

And it's like, at the time, it was like, it's such hard work. And it was unwanted. And it's just like, were, they were seen as expendable. Yeah. Chinese immigrants. So, it's like, okay, we'll put you there. We don't have to think about it. I'm like remembering now, because I remember reading some stuff like in the archives, like, I feel like in the local history room, when they were saying stuff like, the laundry will come out whiter than like the people who are watching it or something like that kind of stuff. And you're just like, wowwww.

Shellie
Even like old soap ads. Even old, like pest removal ads, and they are so, they're so messed up.

Respectfulchild
Well, I'm just looking at the time, I guess I'm gonna have to wrap this episode up. We don't really have a conclusion to that. It's just kind of like what we're digesting right now through like, what we went through, I guess, right?

Shellie
Consensus? historical fiction. I don't know how effective it is, regardless of like, exhaustively researched.

Respectfulchild
Like, what's the best way for it to be conveyed? Yeah, and like an effective way? Like, what are the kind of what, what would be our ideal outcome for like a group of tourists to like, have after the end of an experience like that?

Shellie
What's the best way to present this information? That's like A) absorbable, and then B) not trivializing it.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, totally. Totally.

I don't I don't have answers to that yet.

But we'll probably have a follow up episode when you come back. Well, so yeah, yeah, exactly. A year. Yeah.

Thanks so much for joining me in the studio tonight. You've been listening to the Laundry List on CFC Art 90.5 fm. My name is Gan. And I've been in conversation with Shellie. And don't forget to tune in next week for another new episode.

Transcript (繁體中文)

张雪莱
我想我在錄了。我在錄了。好。

敬兒 . 哦，上面顯示的錄製中。好，正經些，電台腔。

张雪莱
我簡直不敢相信，還差幾個月，就已經離我們上次節目幾乎整整兩年了。

敬兒
你上次來是2019年吧？

张雪莱
2019年，2019年夏天。

敬兒
現在再回放起來也很有意思，因為那確實是我們倆友誼的開始。就像是紀錄一樣？就像是：嘩，這是我和雪萊進行的第一次冒險的紀錄，挺狂野的。

张雪莱
冒險是個再好不過的詞來形容。好，我很好奇，從我們幾乎兩年前的那次談話中，你覺得對你來說印象最深刻的是什麼？

敬兒
你是說我們錄下來的那段談話？噢，印象最深刻的是什麼？老實說，就像簡單的交談已經是一件不容易的事了。就像你說的，感覺像我們談話時是深陷其中，感覺我們在東拉西扯，但是當你回頭聆聽那段對話的時候，其實它很流暢，並且有一種結構性。因為像我們做的這種談話性採訪並不常見：能夠做到在感覺自如的同時，在很多事情層面上達成共識；而且創造出了一個談論這些話題的空間。因為自那次以來，我經常與你交談；比如說我們會經常發一些無關緊要的短訊給對方，但那些短訊的話題都可以歸結到一個“我們共享的小眾興趣”的分類下。而且我之前雖然喜歡自己閱讀和思考很多東西，但是我從來沒有和其他人探討過這些事。所以那可能就是我印象最深刻的元素。我們的交談顯得水到渠成。

张雪莱
對。這一點挺不錯的，我喜歡。

敬兒
我喜歡獨自閱讀和思考，但我不太喜歡跟其他人探討。所以那就是我覺得最突出的一點，我們倆的交談顯得很自然。

张雪莱
過獎了。

敬兒
你覺得呢？

张雪莱
我的意思是，回頭聽我們自己的聲音感覺怪怪的，而且那是很久以前的事了。但是當時那種輕鬆的對話和我們現在的談話沒有太大區別。

敬兒
對，現在這次感覺上不像是“我才開始認識你”，而是“噢，我們已經是朋友了”的感覺。像是在同一等級上。

张雪莱
對對，那是我們第三次會晤了，那是很激烈的會晤。

敬兒
對，我是在你Calgary的展覽上認識你的，然後你來了這裡，我們又開車去了Regina。

张雪莱
我見到了你的父母。

敬兒
對。我全家。我們經歷了一場暴風雨。

张雪莱
對，這就是我喜歡冒險這個詞，形容的太恰當了，因為那確實是一場冒險。

敬兒
這在很大程度上是受了這些影響：你來這裡有著很具體的理由，而且你有很明確的目的，你知道你想體驗些什麼，想尋找些什麼。而我則是突發奇想的，我不會自發的去做，但是我很樂意跟你一起去，我非常高興能有這個陪你的機會，你知道的？

张雪莱
我感覺像是在電影裡一樣：兩個初遇的主角，立刻想要 “對，我們想一起做事”。

敬兒
對。那叫什麼？一見鍾情？就像是浪漫喜劇：在兩人初遇的那一刻，那才是故事的開端。

张雪莱
還有許多我們交談內容的方面上，我經常會：“噢！我忘了這一點”。就像我們再談苦力的時候，我完全忘了那部分。

敬兒
噢，對。那是他們在隧道遊覽的時候講給我們的，對嗎？那是源自於中文音譯（苦力），意思是痛苦的力量？

张雪莱
那一點我還想更深入的了解，因為我質疑他們告訴我們的一切，到底哪些是真的哪些是假的。那段經歷我至今仍在想：這在哪發生的？這真的發生了嗎？

敬兒
就像是惡夢初醒的懵懂對嘛？

张雪莱
完全正確。但是我們至今仍然在考慮那段經歷，而且在一年後COVID-19的背景下來研究這些事情顯得尤其有趣。感覺上一切都被放大了，更合時宜，嚴重，緊急，危險；我認為這就是上一次節目錄音中對我來說最突出的地方。我們當時能談笑風生，但我不知道如果換作現在來錄那期節目的話，我們還能不能笑成那樣。

敬兒
對，那是事實。也許這是我自己的一種應激方式；這讓我覺得很不自在。實際上這很荒謬。我需要對它一笑了之，因為現實之中發生這樣的事實在太荒唐了。

张雪莱
對，這就是我第一個想問的問題：到底誰是這些東西的目標觀眾？兩年了，我仍在糾結這個問題。

敬兒
那個隧道？隧道遊覽嗎？我經常想，就像陰魂不散一樣。我猜他們連對“這只是一個景點項目”的事實都不加規避了。可笑的是那有兩個遊覽項目，除了這個還有Al Capone 那個。但那一個項目就非常戲劇化：有一堆演員拿著假槍之類的東西跑來跑去，各種慘叫各種砰砰嘣嘣，我記得的大概就這樣。而這個“財富大道”，我想他們是想把它包裝的更具歷史性。因為那裡面沒有太多誇張的戲劇元素，除了一個機械老闆以外；但其他的一切都沒有相同規格的戲劇化，因為那本來應當是一次“歷史性，教育性的體驗”。但我覺得，也許去過的遊客也有此同感：他們來了，遊覽完隧道，然後走了，感覺挺有趣，就像我的其他一大堆比較有趣的經歷一樣，這就了事了，對吧？我不知道他們有沒有試圖把它變得更具影響性，或者用以激發對這一類問題的深度探討。

张雪莱
這很有趣，因為我剛讀了史學家 Brian Osborne的一篇文章，文中提到了一些小鎮需要利用歷史小說和神話故事來吸引遊客。而Moose Jaw正是一個對在某些特定歷史的研究上進行了大量投資的小鎮。所以，一切都起源於發現那些隧道的人，他們想知道並證明這些隧道的故事，哪怕只有一丁點，你懂的，所謂的“有形的證據”。那家我感興趣的咖啡館有一些有趣的小故事，就是Main street街對面那家；一些關於一群人因肇事相遇的軼事，那家咖啡館有個連接隧道的暗門。還有一個，我想就在街頭的那個酒吧，那裡也是直通隧道的。關於那也有許多描述人們當年怎樣為了躲避Moose Jaw嚴酷的冬天，便使用那些溫暖的隧道作為出行路線的軼事。但這些都只是平凡短小的故事；所以我很難說明它們到底是怎樣被浮誇杜撰到今天這副模樣。而且我最近看見他們在籌募重新開業。

敬兒
哦，有意思，我沒注意，他們主要說了些什麼

张雪莱
他們的口號是：“歷史從不改變，不論你試圖如何美化”。

敬兒
哦，

张雪莱
這是他們發在Facebook上的帖子。我認為他們的措辭很可笑。就像他們以毫無依據的虛假遊覽項目的“美德”篡改歷史一樣。不是嗎？

敬兒
而且聽起來很窩囊，就像是在說：“我們就是在呈現歷史，但什麼都永遠不會改變”。

张雪莱
哦對，我想你是對的。我的意思是，就在當前世界這種政治文化背景下，你還敢叫一個亞洲人苦力？你懂的，就是這樣的口號讓我想起了我一直在思考的問題：像這樣的“歷史再現景點”就是最原始的假新聞。我的意思是，殖民歷史本身就已經像是假新聞。但像他們這種在空間上無中生有斷章取義，信息上以訛傳訛的做法，看上去已經像欺詐了。但就像你說的，遊客進了門，他們只是單純看看；他們對這段經歷幾乎沒有任何理性的批評。

敬兒
而且就像你說的那樣，也就像我們在上一期節目中談到的一樣：他們含淚敘述著這個白人杜撰的故事，講述著當年那些白人殖民者是如何虐待亞洲人的，這樣一來很顯然是想反襯出他們當今是如何清高。我在回想，當時有個人就問，“哦，他們不會是真的被逼到這些隧道裡的吧”。 而且就連我們都在討論這些故事的可信度。當時那些遊客問：“哦，這些就是貨真價實的發生這些事情的隧道嗎？”，他們的回答卻是：“其實不是，這些是供暖的隧道，只是被我們改造成了景點，不過這故事是真的哦，只是不是實際發生在這些隧道裡的。” 於是遊客便道：“啊，所以說這就不是我想像的那樣正宗的體驗。”

张雪莱
“正宗”是個有趣的詞。我在這次項目中的一件作品在很多層面上就在討論“正宗”。我在揣摩“正宗”的定義時候，就在想什麼是正宗的歷史：就說一段歷史要怎樣才能論作正史？我在想那些關於隧道本身的故事正史，而關於早期中國移民在Moose Jaw生存經歷的故事卻不是正史；但對於Moose Jaw的旅遊業來說卻是一段正史：那是一個正宗的表象，是一個白人致歉口吻的典例；是一個白人殖民者試圖埋葬這段歷史的典例。我也在想一些小細節，比如我們第一次去隧道的時候，我們當時僅僅是在嘲笑這些遊覽項目有多荒唐，不過現在我是確實為止震怒。舉例來說，白人不曾開過洗衣坊，所有洗衣坊都是中國人開的，因此在這個行業中，被聘工人被剝奪了太多自主權。你懂的，人們在做生意。Ashleigh Androsoff博士有一段很棒的視頻，視頻中她談到當她在遊覽的時候，她問過導遊當年城裡有多少家中國洗衣坊，導遊說一家都沒有。她當時就知道導遊在撒謊，因為她之前查過人口普查報導，當年在Moose Jaw共有九家洗衣坊，其中八家是中國人開的。所以基本上來講，它抹殺了那些做洗衣坊生意的人以及他們的故事，從而抹煞了這一部分歷史和歷史的自主權。我想這也是為什麼我那麼痛恨那個傢伙的原因。那個傢伙。

敬兒
我感覺這像一場電影；就像是導演在結尾，安插了一個無知的男人來問這樣一個白痴的問題。但這也真正反應了這整個體驗在傳達信息上是有多沒用。

张雪莱
我在仔細剖析他說的話，他想表達什麼意思；他用的“被迫”一詞其實本身沒那麼糟糕，只是聽起來有點而已，但我還是煩他說的那一席話。但我同時也很討厭那個導致這些事情發生的隧道遊覽；因為說白了他們的意思是：因為中國人現在活在地上了，所以情況沒那麼壞；即使中國人從來沒被迫到地下去過，對嗎？不論現實，當你被看作是活在地下的人的時候，這就是糟糕。“現在中國人活在地上了所以種族歧視就不復存在了”正是這一怪異的二分法，使得同那廝一類的人能說出 “沒有那麼糟糕吧？”的話。

敬兒
再次，我們試圖揣摩隧道遊覽的意圖，很顯然，擁有一個簡單、直截了當的故事會使景點項目更易推銷。而且相較於深度解釋各種錯綜複雜的政治系統鎮壓，這樣的敘事會簡單太多；可以概括為：“噢，不，他們經歷了壞事情，他們住在地下，不過他們現在沒事了，他們活在地表，這些是很久以前的事情。” 我認為有一些尤其困擾我的地方是那裡面有太多場景特效了：你懂的，各種音效，各種細節；那有各種詳細的道具佈置，比如床啊，桌子啊，換洗衣物啊，籃子啊，等等。你幾乎可以在整個遊覽中完全被這些特效吸引，表現得：“啊，看這個，好有趣好神奇。” 有一部分最讓人搞不明白：比如說你正在遊覽，突然間你就走到了盡頭的一家移民局；或者，你懂的，鴉片館。這在他們想要敘述的這一個故事裡面顯得完全不合邏輯，讓整個體驗突然變得很不真實；儘管他們的賣點全在於把這次遊覽打造成一個真實的體驗，他們想讓你覺得在遊覽的時候你就穿越成一個早期中國移民工人；那就是他們意象裡你遊覽隧道的時候本來該有的體驗。

张雪莱
的確，他們覺得如果不讓遊客們扮演成簽約的中國勞工，這個遊覽項目就沒法辦了。 他們真的可以包含太多真實的歷史元素而不用依賴於這些東西，顯得很多餘。對，我覺得這尤其突出了我們兩年前討論過的一點：他們壓根沒打算接待像我們倆這樣的觀眾。

敬兒
對，對，正解，肯定的。

张雪莱
而且，你懂的，從某種意義上講，它很奇怪的將我們倆即影射為主題又影射成局外觀者。想像一下，假如你是個白人，加入到這樣一個純白的遊覽團，那麼中國人在這段經歷中就變成一個抽象概念；你可以在沒有一個中國人，亞洲人，或有色人種的情況下完成整個遊覽。這確實鞏固了他們這一概念：主導人種即是主要受眾，其他所有人都是異類；這邊是主要歷史，這邊是歷史的一小部分，就是這樣的二分法。

敬兒
這就像在學校裡歷史是怎樣教給我們的一樣：我們連配角都算不上。就像是，他們白人才是主心故事；而其餘的一切，你需要想像，想像那些人是什麼樣的，儘管我們活生生的就在這裡。我想趁著這個話題快速提起一下Tashme的故事。就像歷史小說和個人經歷一樣，其可信度由你自己定奪。話說我有幸去訪Tashme，位處Hope鎮, BC省；那是加拿大最大的一個日本拘留所。我的游訪亦是偶然，我原本只是去朋友那裡過週末，他們一直想去參觀那個叫Tashme博物館的小建築；所以我才得以前往，它完全不同，非常，非常不同。它不像隧道一樣，不是一個遊覽項目。基本上講，從前有一個白人，他繼承了這樣一座棚屋，裡面擠滿了各種東西；他翻箱倒櫃了一通，發現那些都是曾住在Tashme的人的遺留物件，都是些古董。於是他便把這當作一個興趣項目，以畢生精力來學習並保持關於Tashme的一切。令他尤其驚喜的是一張Tashme的老照片，那看上去就像一個有多個日本家庭組成的別緻的小鎮。他指出：你注意到，這裡沒有圍牆，沒有獄卒之類，但是他們聚集在這裡肯定是有什麼原因的。而至於為什麼沒人離開的原因，我聯想到了隧道遊覽上那廝的問題“噢，他們被逼住地下的”。不過沒有人拿槍指著他們的頭，沒人在他們門上加鎖；但是他們為什麼？為什麼會住在這？為什麼這些日本家庭被強行搬走並移到這地方？ 而且事實上他們有離開的自由嗎？但他們能去哪？他們是實實在在處於深山老林裡；而且他們一開始需要徒步到那裡，他們該怎樣逃跑？我們從各種層面上收到了太多美國歷史和媒體的影響，我以為美國的拘留所都是有鐵絲網的那種；我們聯想到的是各種暴行，最極端的那種，我們只能理解各種脅迫，各種障礙物和枷鎖等等。因為我們幾乎被教育得只能辨認出暴力，壓迫，或其他非常極端的明顯具體的元素。但凡是我們看到這些意料之外的東西時，在某種意義上就大大減少了其可信度。

张雪莱
但是你知道，我感覺在我們學習這些事情的同時，也了解到了你我之間一些絕美的事情。你懂的，就像是Moose Jaw和Saskatoon中國同胞的故事，他們的處境雖說是很可怕，但是那卻是一些關於亞裔社群如何團結起來的美麗故事；同時我也聯想到了你那個關於中國城大門的項目，以及這些事情是怎樣發生的; 又比如說，x年之後，你該怎樣向外人敘述這些紮根於傷痛的故事？對我而言，這是很典型的加拿大作風：因為這就像在維護這個國家平等的神話。但我同時也認為這些事情的定義大多數情況下被歸結成了白人的那種定義：我聯想到的是那些絲毫不受這些傷痛經歷影響的人卻決定著，就該怎樣去衡量痛苦和苦難這方面而言；哪些可以哪些不能被深入延展。舉個例子，Lynn Beyak參議員，我想她的姓是這麼拼的，她在成為加拿大的參議員前在Harper總理的政黨工作，實際上我想她是今年剛剛辭職的。這是發生在原住民真相與和解委員會成立的時候，成千上萬的關於原住民們在印地安人寄宿學校系統的淫威下遭受的精神上，肉體上的百般摧殘和性虐待的故事；數不清的嚴謹的研究並整理過的這類檔案，著實被她以“這些被發現的惡行使得寄宿學校善意的初衷顯得黯然失色”草草總結。由此可見同情的局限性，和這類研究的局限性，我個人認為。因為不論你展示了多少信息，如果人們不接受，他們就能輕易的忽視這些信息。所以，要找到所謂的“證據”沒有我想像的那樣簡單；我開始意識到依靠證據類的工作的局限性。

敬兒
我的作品是受到了你的來訪，以及我們之間的這一系列持續的對話的直接影響；因為我感覺我這大半輩子裡，我一直很難和中國人在加拿大的苦難這些歷史產生共鳴。我想這是因為我這種對血統的太直接的認知方式：哦，我的父母是來自馬來西亞的，而他們的祖先是很早以前從中國南方遷徙去的。但是那些來這裡修建了鐵路的，在金礦場洗衣坊賣過命的人卻是別人的祖先。就算我是中國人，但我會覺得：哦，不，這樣做不對；我幾乎會覺得我像是在那別人的痛苦經歷邀功，並且想迫使某種聯繫發生一樣。所以說，這真的很難。即使我知道這些事情發生過，即使我知道那很苦。我不知道我是否做好了允許我自己去與這些歷史產生共鳴的準備。所以我想在我製作這個作品的整個過程中，我考慮過很多關於祖先血統的問題，而且我意識到在我們大多數人的概念中，血統是一個有利可圖的東西：就像有些人靠證明自己的血統來謀利一樣，那簡直是一種殖民主義的思考方式。因為他們（白人）抹殺了原住民的歷史，並以特定的方法把他們分類；因此到現在原住民們想要單純生活的時候，他們卻需要證明自己的祖先，證明他們的身分和血統等等。所以這便導致我們把證明血統當作是：我能得到哪些好處？或者說我為了獲利的目的證明我的祖先是被害者等等；這又歸結回了向白人殖民政府證明自己了。所以當我意識到這點時我就想；哦，那完全不是我想做的。但我讓這樣的思考方式影響我太久了。

张雪莱
你倒是讓我想起了一件我一直很想跟你討論的事；就是在Atlanta的連環謀殺案發生之後，人們才突然意識到反亞裔暴力行為的存在：儘管我們的群體從很早以前就在呼籲這個問題了。尤其是去年，當COVID-19開始時，當COVID-19發生前，就算是在這裡，你懂的，我看到中國城遭到褻瀆，人們面臨騷擾；但是要一直到某種暴力事件發生的時候，我們才有稍微多一點的爆光度，對嗎？只有到這種地步反亞裔行為才會被承認是真實存在的。我一直在思考很多關於平息反亞裔暴力的事情，因為在我們這個龐大，龐大的群體裡大家各有不同。它並不是單一性的，我看見許多上層社會的亞裔門聲稱他們有過此遭遇，但我不知道他們受的歧視程度上是否有異於那些低收入的亞裔們，那些沒有檔案記載的，工人階級的，變性的，跨性別的，和女性亞裔們。對嗎？我不知道，我只是一直在想如何平息這種趨勢，想到他們在對待我們這擁有那麼多迥然不同的歷史文化背景和移民故事的龐大群體時，是怎樣的缺乏區別，就這樣完全把我們粗暴得裹在一起，混為一談。

敬兒
“平息”是一個我沒想過的，絕妙的詞來形容當局發生的一切。因為我想我只是單純的觀察，並且從很多層面上感到困惑和沮喪，你懂的，現在發生的是非常讓人難受的事情，但更令人不快的是那些更大的聲音都來自於那些有錢有勢的人，總的來說就是在這些暴力面前不是那麼脆弱的人，這就像一種怪異的機會主義。

张雪莱
完全贊同。

敬兒
而且我覺得社交媒體上發生的一系列就像是一次“壓迫奧運會”一樣，一直持在續發生著，因為那樣才能流行起來，那樣才能有影響力，看起來才體面。你懂的，假如你默不作聲，那就不好了，你必須發表些言論。但這就像是在事情本身上附加些好處，而不是“我能從中學些什麼”。我想這就是我對血統認知上的一個轉播；我對祖先的概念是“我能從我的祖先那裡學到些什麼”，我不需要從中得到什麼好處，但這些經驗教訓，這些他們所受的挫折卻能教給我許多關於我自己的權利和自己在世上的地位。對，所以這就是為什麼當我看到他們以“停止亞洲仇恨”標籤的形式來概括我生活中各種不同元素時會那麼懊惱的原因，因為這感覺上是淡化了問題的本源。淡化是一個極好的詞，我認為這種淡化中最齷齪的一方面便是當人們呼籲加強我們社區的警力，因為我們不需要更多警察。如果你淺閱下警察和中國人打交道的歷史你就知道，我們不需要更多警力。我不記得我是否跟你講過，當我們碰面探討研究的時候，我拿到了一份Quong-Wing v. The King 的筆錄，就是那樁啟發我攝影作品系列的最高法院案件，因為他被劃分成立“中國佬”而不能聘用白人女服務員，儘管他是英國國民。所以總而言之這便是一起種族壓倒國籍的典例。但在法庭筆錄中，反對他的主要人物之一就是Moose Jaw的警察局長。我特意裁下來這一段，每逢有人道 “警察幫助過中國人”的時候，我便把這一段發給他，說：“不，非也，這就是鐵證”。對，這就是為何我們的社區不需要更多警力的原因，那完全不是問題所在。我同時也覺得“停止亞洲仇恨”的標籤有些空洞，因為這樣就使這整個趨勢變成了以事故為基礎的，使它變得孤立。它沒有系統性的看待問題所在，就像是說“停下來，那樣很壞”——廢話，種族歧視本來就壞。

张雪莱
而且這根本就沒有真正涉及問題根源。並且這很容易把責任縮減到：“我不支持亞洲仇恨，所以這事與我無干”。

敬兒
“事不關己，高高掛起。”

张雪莱
是的，我想這就是“黑命貴”（Black Lives Matter）的精妙之處，Land Back強調的是那些有待解決的，系統性的，關乎多個人群的問題。它宏觀的看待整個趨勢是如何形成的。

敬兒
我看到有人指出過：當“黑命貴”運動發生的同時，“所有命都貴”也冒了出來，但你沒有看見過類似這樣的用來反駁“停止亞洲仇恨”的反意見，因為停止針對某個事物的仇恨是以個人為出發點的，你做為一個個人，完全可以說“我不恨亞洲人”，那就無所謂了。當你想到“黑命貴”的時候，到底關於它的哪一點那麼讓人坐立不安？為什麼他們歇斯底里的要以“藍命貴”，“所有命都貴”這樣的說辭來反駁？因為它一針見血的指出了社會結構上的弊端所在。而且像仇恨犯罪這樣的事情，有些人尤其專注這些，他們極力想要把更多的罪行劃分到仇恨犯罪的歸類下。 仇恨犯罪的定義本來就很模稜兩可，它很個體化；歸根到底他們的結論為：“我們想要更多犯仇恨罪的人入牢獄”，與此同時又支持“黑命貴”，這倒是虛偽得很。就像去年夏天，大家都在嚷嚷削減警局和監獄的資金，然後突然間，你自己的社區受到襲擊的時候，他們立馬亂了陣腳，慌道：“哦，等等，我們這次沒時間磨洋工了，實際上，我需要更多警力”。這就顯出了這些標籤有多麼空洞，這很讓人擔憂，因為我們需要更加有教育性的方式，和可以多層面深度探討這些問題的細枝末節的空間。但社交媒體不總是用來進行這一類似學習探討的空間，對嗎？因為這些平台太表演化了。

张雪莱
而且我發現一個怪象，就是那些從未提及起過自己東亞血統的人現在突然覺得自己有必要談論這些事了；我個人覺得這並無不妥，因為每個人走的都是各自不同的學習道路；雖然不幸的是這些動力總是由某種悲劇引起，但我仍為那些自我意識覺醒的人們感到欣慰。唯一讓我感覺奇怪的是，這一點我還沒有足夠長時間來思忖；就是以經歷作為證據。因為現在我看見在社交媒體上有很多人講述他們關於種族歧視和性別歧視等等的遭遇；我認為，再強調一次，這很重要；因為這就是我們分享經歷的方式。但我同時也對這些以自身經歷作為證據的敘事潮流感興趣；再說一次，這裡面有種可信度的元素，就像我們討論過的一樣“這是發生在我身上的事”。這讓我聯想到#metoo運動，對，“這件遭遇發生了，這遭遇發生在我身上”。對就是這一類似的，但歸根到底這些運動的問題在於它們很難激發同情心。然後我便尋思有什麼樣的解決方案來繼續這些運動；我發現了一篇多年前的關於這些事的文章，很有意思，我想那是九十年代的時候發表的，我們當時還是嬰孩。

敬兒
我想你應該已經發給我了。

张雪莱
我發給你的那個，實際上我得歸功於我的朋友Lorraine最早寄給我的。那篇文章叫We Will Not Be Used（我們講不會被使用），對嗎？她寫的另外一篇呢——她是個律師，所以這篇是專門關於仇恨犯罪的。對，也許我們該把話題轉向另一件我一直想跟你談的事，那就是這病毒怎樣影響我們的經歷的。我感覺上期節目裡我們談的只有一點效果，因為那是緊接著我們的（隧道）經歷，我們尚在回味中。但現在我們有了兩年的時間來醞釀那次遊覽，和那些“歷史再現”。所以，她寫了這篇關於仇恨犯罪的文章，她在文中提到了仇恨犯罪和仇恨言論的影響力以及其傳播方式。她也談到了語言實際上是行動；其動機在於傷害他人。它們並非所謂的“沒有任何影響的字句”。但是，我最近也在讀 Sara Ahmed的一篇探討仇恨是經濟性的文章。這又使我聯想到了我為這次展覽做的一個作品：那是一個用大型的紅色 LED燈寫的單詞“authentic”（正宗），用的是雲吞字體。而且我知道那種字體會刺激到很多人，考慮到一切與這字體相關聯的事情，對嗎？但我也在想：招牌，符號這一類似本身並不帶憎意，但它們怎樣被使用，怎樣被武器化，和他們的表達方式卻能是極具惡意的。所以，仇恨並非靜止的，它的側重點在於傳播方式和動向。而且我不確定將更多罪行劃分為仇恨犯罪會使暴力不再發生。對嗎？但話說回來，這很奇怪，因為我們想從這些答案中發散。

敬兒
也許因為所有被劃分為仇恨犯罪的罪行大都其原因伊斯蘭恐懼症和恐同症，這很奇葩，因為他們在避免為這些仇恨犯罪創造環境的更大的問題。而且他們僅僅關注與這些問題的產物，而不是在一開始就阻止它。而且這感覺就單純是為了保住警察的飯碗。

张雪莱
根本別跟我提起Andrew Yang 這一黨，以及他如何妄圖推動當下的局面的。有件事我很好奇你的觀點，之前我們談到了“celestial”（天朝）這個詞，我想我們倆之前誰都沒被這麼叫過，對嗎？而且我們談到了“coolie”（苦力）這個詞，你被這麼叫過兩次，因為你去過隧道遊覽兩次；我被那麼叫過一次，因為我去過一次隧道遊覽。於是乎我們便討論了一下這些過時的詆毀語，並對它們進行了了解。我們談了談它們對我們的影響，以及至今它們是怎樣影響我們的——儘管那些是很古早的用語。我對這些事考慮了些許，因為我想起我剛搬到美國時第一次被詆毀，我當時還小，我並不知道那些話是什麼意思，並不理解這些言語中飽含了多深的恨意。我當時的反應僅僅是：我正在學英語，這些到底是什麼...

敬兒
因為字句本無意，但當我們賦予它們意義並開始使用它們的時候，它們才有實意。

张雪莱
絕對的，Sara Ahmed還提到過一件有意思理論，就是字句的“黏性”：就像語言和符號具有粘黏的特性一樣，能使它們牢牢粘住仇恨，傷害，邪惡這些東西不放。在我們的對話中我們曾思考過為什麼這些東西密不可分，以及為什麼就算沒有切身經歷過，這些東西仍然對我們有影響。

敬兒
我很好奇，我去過隧道遊覽兩次，記得第一次是和我家人一起去的。詼諧的是導遊是白人，而整個遊覽團都是中國人；所以當時的情況就是這個白人導遊領著四個中國遊客參觀這一系列東西，然後道“我要叫你們這群人苦力”，我想我全家上下沒有一個人被這麼叫過，比如被用這樣的詞詆毀過？但我同時也清楚，因為你可以很明顯的看出：哦，雖然我沒有真正的被人用這個詞侮辱過，但我知道這是有殺傷力的話，這樣很是不妥。然後我想在那個導遊的腦子裡也可能在鼓搗：“我是說呢，還是不說？這明擺在我的台詞裡寫著，但我遇到這種情況該怎麼辦？哎呀呀，罷了，這只是詞句而已，我猜我只能這樣硬著頭皮的尬演下去了”。當你提起“天朝”的時候，我不知道該怎樣完全解釋。我只是覺得，嘩，這是一種怪異的感覺：去了解一個我不曾知曉的，曾經用來侮辱我的族人的詞。我只是覺得，我很慶幸從沒有人真正詆毀過我。但是那並不代表這些詞自身沒有份量，你懂的，但那不同的年代；假如我過那被歧視的痛苦經歷，可能就不會那樣困惑不解了。所以我覺得這之間缺少了一個步驟，而那些參加遊覽的白人們，更是缺了好幾個步驟。

张雪莱
我覺得這個“置身事外”的過程很有意思，因為那些語句聽上去覺得很陌生遙遠。但是我在想那些語句是怎樣死灰復燃的，就像它們的意境，比如它們的21世紀版本：比如像“功夫病毒”，“中國病毒”等等。從這種定義上來言，總有這樣的新詞語被創造出來，可以這麼說。

敬兒
我不知道這兩者間是否也直接關聯。我在聽Still Processing和New York Times廣播的一期節目，那上面的兩位主播都是黑人，他們談到了 N開頭的那個詞，那個詞就跟“苦力”在歷史背景的層面上大相徑庭。其中一位主播在節目開始時分享了這麼一個故事：他在peloton軟件上報了一個健身班，教練也是黑人，但是那個peloton班上其他所有人都是白人。教練在課上放的歌都是黑人藝術家的音樂，歌詞中涵蓋了大量的那個N開頭的詞。然後在那個只有白人虛擬空間裡，他頓時感覺道很不自在；他感覺到在同一空間裡與白人分享這個詞很難受，在某種意義上他感覺像是在為其他人表演一樣。我不知道這件事是否和我們談的有關，但當我們去遊覽的時候，當團裡只有四五個亞洲，中國人，而其餘全是又老又白的人的時候，我們就清楚這種感覺。我想就是這種和“局外人”在同一空間分享這些敏感詞彙，大異於和有過相同經歷的人分享這些詞的原由；前者讓人感覺很不自在，幾乎令人有一種聚光燈單獨打在你身上的感覺。

张雪莱 . 老實說，我當時並沒注意到這點。而現在我卻是對我們遊覽上的人群結構感興趣的很。這很奇怪，因為我知道這樣的事會發生，你也跟我說過這會發生。但當我著實聽到那個詞的時候，仍然感到怪怪的。Still Processing是個很出色的節目，我暫時還沒聽過那一集，但我會去聽的。而且你同時讓我想起了Still Processing的副主播Jenna Wortham前不久前講過的她的博物館經歷：她去了Monticello，是Jefferson的前居所，他也曾把那地方當種植園。她提到了在那個巨大的房子裡的飯廳裡，你能看到側面牆上有很多小活板門，那就是奴隸們進出用的；儘管他們是負責侍奉和烹飪的。而正是這種入口的差別，這種光明正大的隱藏歷史，這便和我們之前談到的隧道的做法是如出一轍。而且在節目尾聲，她也談到了這個設想其實沒那麼糟糕，考慮到這個在原址上重建的博物館是僅僅旨在代表一個被奴役的家庭的房子。而且你在仔細研究這個重建房的時候你會發現；這一點也是參觀過這個博物館的遊客的觀點：就是這座重建房僅僅是一座用於模擬歷史的劇院，它天生無法真正捕捉到真實的經歷。我認為這一點很有意思。

敬兒
這倒是提醒了我：其實有些經歷你是不想和其他的人群分享的，尤其是針對你的族人的那些不好的經歷，這歸根到底就是“我不確定我是否有義務/做好了和你分享這段經歷的準備”。尤其是以這種揭舊傷疤的形式呈現。這也讓我想起了一個我聽過的一個，我不記得具體是什麼，好像是關於喜劇演員或電影之類的；但總的來說它提到了一些關於責任啊，創新啊之類的，關於創作作品是沒有什麼話題時禁忌的，但是我們有責任確保我們是以什麼樣的方式來呈現的；而且我們完全沒有必要去揭任何人的舊傷疤。所以，憑什麼這些歷史博物館能這麼做？是何人讓他覺得自己配做出這些選擇和提供這樣的體驗？這樣暴露的，顯性的呈現方式真的有效嗎？還是說有其他方式來傳達同樣的信息，但不是以這種製造更多傷害的方法？我們首先想到的例子就是“苦力”那套東西，很顯然，而我感覺那已經算在“傷痛三級片”之類的範疇內了：“哦！我們必須使用這些材料，因為那很激烈，是歷史上一些很暗黑很大尺度的材料，你需要切身體驗它！除此以外你就體驗不到”。難道這真的是敘述故事的唯一方法嗎？

张雪莱
正是。Eve Tuck有一篇跟棒的文章，她在文中呼籲暫停對傷痛經歷的研究。我覺得那很有趣，因為它概括了很多我們所講的，就像筒倉一樣，那就是我們的故事的精髓。關於這個作品，我在Saskatoon有太多需要做的了，例如遇見你，那可能是這段經歷的巔峰。我也得以會面許多人：我得以交結曾經經營Exchange Cafe的兩兄弟之一的孫女，我也跟Golden Dragon的一位店長的一位女兒交談過。而且我可以做這系列研究，這些研究像我展示了些了不起的歷史，了解各個社群是怎樣團結起來的；就如當年的“洗衣請願”，大家團結起來一起向市政廳說：“不，我們不會付你這些種族歧視的洗衣稅”。就像這樣一些輝煌的故事。 我們不會聽到這樣的關於反抗的故事，我們聽到的只是受苦難的故事；然而至今仍有那麼多的美麗的抗爭和愛在發生著。而且你懂的，那些才是真正支持著人們奮鬥至今到不同程度的元素；所以為什麼愛，這樣的公眾的愛被廣為流傳和慶祝？你懂的，

敬兒
這倒是讓我想起一些事。而且回顧上期節目的時候，實際上另外有一件事尤其突出：你說過跟類似Toronto的只有些近期華人歷史城市比起來，大草原上有著博大，淳厚的華人的歷史，因為像這邊的歷史可以追溯至很久遠的年代。而且我好似從未曾仔細想過這些歷史，因為在學校裡，他們對這些真的只是一筆帶過；他們至多只講過一些關於鐵路的歷史。所以我總是覺得華人歷史發生在其他地方。我們不曾真正學過任何具體的歷史背景，我想這就是激發了我現在這樣對當地歷史產生的強烈學習慾望和珍視的小小動機之一。而且，當地歷史總是被以一種很乏味的形式來介紹的，就像是：啊，當地歷史，隨即他們便掏出一張灰撲撲的印著老爺車或者舊街道的棕褐色照片。你懂的，那當地歷史真真切切就是這樣呈現的；然而這裡有太多更酷的東西沒有亮相機會。我以前從未真正參觀過檔案庫，但很顯然我現在經常去了，因為你上次發給我那麼多別緻的關於早期雜貨鋪之類的照片時，我的反應只是：這些都是以前開在這裡的？什麼？我不知道，我完全沒概念。

张雪莱
當地歷史蘊涵著太多力量了。而且有些東西讓它們使人真的感覺很親切，很有鄉土氣。對，因為它本來就發生在我的鄉土上。但是這些事又發生在這（加拿大），你懂的，就像我們之前談到過這裡總有幾層分離感。而且我覺得這是很接近的兩層。我該澄清下，我的確想要詳細解釋解釋當我說相較於Toronto，Saskatoon的中國歷史更悠久意思：我想我會有這樣的感覺，其中原因之一是因為，你懂的，Toronto這個城市的推倒翻新很頻繁。這明顯發生在了，舉個例子，Saskatoon的第一座中國城身上，但即使這樣，事物感覺上會在這裡保留更久一些。而且我認為現在還能能看到60年代的建築，相較於10年前修的東西，是一件很了不起的事情。這一點就是我的叫做Facades的作品系列想要表達的；作品是關於標牌，各式空缺的標牌，所傳達的就是那種，你懂的，有些物件被移動過，但你不知道那是些什麼東西的那種感覺；而且你在欣賞作品的時候需要像患有失憶症一樣：時而些許的感傷，時而些許的期望，時而些許的悔憾。有時那也許會有一些可能會使人興奮的好的變化，但我想這系列作品主要想表達的還是遺產的構成，什麼才有資格被稱為遺產，以及事物是怎樣過於飛速的發展使得某些事物被劃分為遺產之前就被取代。遺產總是被看作是被用來懷念的東西，而不是當下每天都在被不停創造著的。

敬兒
對，完全的。

张雪莱
而且我覺得這作品呼應了你那條關於創作者的責任的評語，這很讓人激動，你知道吧？

敬兒
非常激動。我覺得，我的意思是，你的Facades作品，我對它的感觸很深，就像我每每意識到在新事物取代一個位置的時候，我記不得那個位置之前是存在著什麼一樣。這現實有些可怖，假如我們不主動積極的去保護這些遺產，那麼我們集體的記憶就會被抹去。

张雪莱
我想說的是，我並非那種為了懷舊而去保留某些東西之人。卻是那種有興趣，希望去探索，發現那裡到底有些什麼，缺些什麼的人，那天我摘錄了下這樣一段絕美的話；因為在Toronto，“小牙買加”是一個正在被定奪的，有可能被歸為該市文化遺產地址的一個社區。這很重要，因為縱觀當今Toronto的各個社區，都是白人及富人區，因為遺產曾被當成一種工具來使用。但現在形勢開始了變化。我們現在有了不同的社區來逐漸改變這一趨勢，但那就在上週發生的一件大事。但是在Edge of Empire一書中，Jane Jacobs 有過這樣一段有趣的話，她說：“哪些地方成為或不成為遺產的一部分，以及在這種認可過程中地方經歷了哪些變革，是這場與身份和權力進行的戰役中最關鍵的一場對弈。遺產地不單純的象徵著某些價值觀和信仰，而就在這樣的由地點蛻變為遺產地的過程中，這些地方的定義會被決定，引起辯論，引起反抗，而且社會的價值觀念會面臨挑戰，並被再創”。所以這使我聯想到Toronto正在發生的事，但我也同時聯想到了隧道，因為我在那些隧道上花了太多心思...還有這段話是如何映襯那些隧道的，對吧？

敬兒
而且，因為像遺產保護這類工作實際也是在過去中工作，就有些像是在說：“哦，我們想要使這些事物保持靜止以保留這些古老的東西；我們不想保存那些還活著的，還在發展變化的，還在被人們使用的東西”。這倒讓我想起我在馬來西亞遊覽Penang的時候，我們有一位親友帶領我們參觀George Town，整個地區都是被聯合國教科文組織列為世界遺產的。然後就在George Town中，我們參觀了一個叫Khoo Kongsi的地方，那是一個船員家族的氏族廟宇；裡面有一座絕美而結構複雜的祠堂，一個戲台，和各式長屋。當我們在那裡面的時候，帶我們參觀的那位親友便道：“對，我其實在這裡面住過，我在這裡長大”。他的名字是Khoo先生，然後再遊覽途中他向我們指出了各種東西；比如他會指著一張桌子說“我曾經喜歡坐這”，或者指向另一角落道“我們以前喜歡在那撒尿”。他有類似這樣的數不清的故事，但現在這裡卻空無一人。再沒有人住在這裡。這只是一個供遊客參觀的旅遊景點。我想有時候他們會在戲台上做一些特殊表演或活動，但是，這再也不是像從前一樣的工人生息的生態系統了；我感覺很傷感，很失望，失望在他們對遺產的這種竭力使它們保持靜止，保持過去，而不是使其繼續作為生活場所的保護方式。

张雪莱
我的意思是，我聽有些人說過，雖然我不記得到底是誰說的，或者這話的版權歸誰所有；但總而言之他們說 “凡是進入博物館的東西就會即刻死亡”。而我認為這是一個再恰當不過的解釋，因為其一：它暗示著這些物品在這之前是有生命的，我想到的像這些碗啊，所有這些美麗的花瓶啊，所有這些物件是你能在臥房几案上找得到的，或者你曾經會穿戴的；人們與它們接觸的方式，對它們的概念在進博物館前後是完全不一樣的。這是當今博物館裡存在的很真切的弊病，而那些博物館都在爭先恐後的趨附這種形勢。但是這就是隧道遊覽的不同之處，因為它們屬於娛樂領域，它們幾乎和博物館不在同一個檔次上。

敬兒
對的，對的，就趁著這個博物館和古董的這個話頭，我倒是想起了一些我和藝術家Jeneen Frei Njootli談過的一些事。Jeneen告訴我有一次Jeneen去訪問一家我不記得是博物館或者是藝術家自營中心的時候，Jeneen得以參觀他們的倉庫，而且Jeneen是Gwitchin族人。他們的倉庫裡收藏了些許Gwitchin族的工藝品，其中有一件藏品是一個幾乎類似鞭子一樣的木製樂器，上面有各種長長的流蘇一類的東西。而當時Jeneen就興奮道：哦天哪，我需要用它來演奏，我需要在室外大地上演奏，因為大地有太多年沒有聽見過這種樂器的旋律了，因為它演變了。而且我很喜歡Jeneen的這種思考方式，在Jeneen的心目中，那樂器是活著的，而且和大地有著緊密的聯繫，而這土地也懷念著這些物件，因為它們都被鎖藏在博物館裡了。Jeneen不僅僅是想“我得為了我的族人把這件物品取回，我也需要為思念它的大地取回”。我喜歡這種思維方式。

张雪莱
那是多麼美麗的語言：像這樣想要去呵護一種物件，而不是“我需要它，它是我的”，你懂的，它不是一種佔有的語氣。而從你的描述來看這就好像是那樣做一種責任，就像是一種直覺，我認為那很有意思。

敬兒
對對，完全的。我好奇的是，在你的訪問中，有哪些事情是最讓你意外的？比如說你剛來的那週，因為那是你第一次來Saskatchewan省，所以你來這裡見到了有哪些東西是你感覺是出乎你意料地改變了你的想法的事物？

张雪莱
實際上很有幾樣東西。我愛Saskatchewan的天空；那真的太美了。我其實真的是被這樣如畫的景緻給震撼了，我不敢相信這是真的；我的意思是，我幾乎一輩子都住在大城市裡，而看到這樣的景色著實是沁人心脾的美；這一點就是我那個廣告牌作品想要表達的。就是這種毋論歷史，生活在同一片共享的蒼穹下的感覺，就是這種設定啟發了我。還有一點，可能大概要歸結於我在這裡遇到的人們的美德。我在這裡遇到了各式各樣的人，就拿我去咖啡館的時候做例子：每當我去咖啡館時，就會有人問我來這做什麼的？而我便會答道我在做關於Saskatoon市華裔的歷史的研究。那有很多知道早起中國移民在Saskatoon受到的是怎樣慘無人道的對待。就像有些人會說：“啊，對，那是段很黑暗的歷史”，或者有些人會說：“哦，是的，當時這裡事態確實不樂觀”。而這種事情發生了不止一次，我就真的很驚訝，因為就像你說的，根據經驗來談，這種歷史換成其他地方絕不是這樣廣為人知的。我知道我在比如說Toronto市是不會有這種經歷的：因為我感覺那裡的歷史院校不會教這些東西，再加上那一波波的移民，你幾乎需要與這些歷史共存許久一段時間。換言之，如果你是剛來的，那你不一定有這樣的時間來消化或奢侈來研究探索這些事情。所以我對這現象挺驚訝的，我不知道是不是這裡的學校會教這些，還是這裡的城市文化氛圍熏陶的原因；但我真的很驚訝，除此之外沒有太多其他的事情，不過這種“哦，我知道這段歷史”的普遍認知度確實很出眾。

敬兒
對，他們大多都知道這裡的歷史不光彩，即使他們不了解其中的細節。

张雪莱
對，我猜這就是為什麼這感覺挺奇怪的原因，因為他們知道那歷史不好，是的，那段歷史就是不好。但話說回來，那些故事是有深厚底蘊的，其中也有很多好的地方。所以，就好像是又什麼巨大的東西影響了這裡的人們，讓這些歷史變成了人們的常識？也許？我至今還不知道那是什麼。這有更多城市規劃。而且我想你跟我指出了這點：那是我第一次聽見“食物沙漠”這種說法。

敬兒
哦，真的

张雪莱
作為一個來城裡不開車的人，想找一家便利店太難了。

敬兒
對，那可是一次正宗的體驗，因為你住的 Airbnb在Riversdale，所以想超市那些地方很不方便。

张雪莱
對，我的朋友Tak來我那住了一段時間。要做晚飯的時候我們提著大包小包的雜貨走了很遠。我們去的時一家小一點的在20街上的環保便利店。但是我們想買些油來做飯的時候，他們賣的最小的是一加侖的，所以我們只能將就買那麼一大桶嗎？

敬兒
你想的是“我只在這待一星期，我又不是買這些來開餐廳的”。

张雪莱
我的意思是，對啊，我想住在這裡沒車的話該是多大的挑戰。

敬兒
我覺得這裡的歷史對我來說是朦朧的，但這片區域隱藏了許多是有原因的。那些是市裡的核心地段，這就是為什麼中國城曾建在那的原因，因為當時那地區很便宜，不受歡迎。但現在它卻被縉紳化了，這是當今所有中國城的共同點。這些地方原本是人們可以負擔得起開餐廳或開店的，但他們被逐漸排擠出去到其他地方，所以這就是為什麼這片區域沒有便利店的原因。

张雪莱
這可能是我被慣壞的原因，因為以前住的地方離便利店之類的商鋪只有兩三步路。

敬兒
我們現在談的只是食物啊，便利店之類的。但人們提到發生在像Saskatoon這樣的城市的甜甜圈效應：它太過於以汽車為中心了，什麼東西都被排擠到城市邊緣，像個大大的空盒子一樣。而是中心主要是原住民人口，難民們，中國城等等，都集中在那裡，而他們沒有太好的便捷。

张雪莱
你知道，你倒是提醒了我另外一件事，我當時來Saskatoon時很驚訝得了解道這裡原本曾有過一座原有的中國城，第一座中國城。

敬兒
我原本也不知道。是你告訴我的。

张雪莱
我也對此表示震驚，因為這就是發生在Toronto的，Toronto的第一所中國城真的是為修建市政廳而被拆除的。我一直知道這段歷史；不過我不知道為什麼我懷疑這是一起獨立案件而不屬於城市系統規劃。就在我了解了Saskatoon的情況後，我便讀到了許多關於“中國城的毀滅幾乎是必要的”的一類研究文案，和許多不同城市的城市規劃技巧。Philadelphia也是類似的情況。這又一次的回到了我們之前關於“什麼是可消耗的”的這個話題：誰的故事是可消耗的；這些被消耗掉的鄰里是屬於誰的，而誰又從中有利可圖，得以現代化和發展？所以我很驚訝的發現那是一種模式而且已經蔓延到了各個地方。

敬兒
這是一種很奇怪的感覺：一些在你自己的城市覺得很熟悉的事物，但你發現卻被近乎原封不動的複製到了其他地方。就像其他那些所有地方，我真的不知道這裡原本有第一座中國城，而且當你發現關於它的文章時我幾乎感到困惑，因為我不太明白你在那些對話中講了什麼，就好像是在說兩件完全不同的事情一樣，那確實是在我腦中一直糾纏不清的。這就是為什麼我的作品會變成現在這樣的原因，因為這片土地著實是健在第一座中國城的墳墓之上。實際上，我現在到想起來，我想當我們去市檔案庫的時候，和Ken 還有 Jeff有過一段非常有趣的對話？

张雪莱
他們是最棒的。

敬兒
他們很激動得把茶参上。“我們有客人了”。

张雪莱
他們太和善了。Saskatoon市檔案庫我們愛你。

敬兒
對，他們說那是第一次有紀錄的城市更新改化的實例。我們在我的節目裡已經談過了這些；但當我從你想我推薦的“優良白人父母”廣播中找到這其中的聯繫時，那感覺太奇怪了。我當時就道，等等，第一座中國城是為了修高中而被摧毀的？然後又改建成了技術學院。然後總是這樣些疑問：什麼是可消耗的？它們為什麼可消耗？因為中國人很骯髒，他們有病，他們吸毒，他們犯罪率高等等。我們從中可以看到在歷史上被單獨針對的人群，至今仍存在著這一類似的刻板印象，只不過是針對不同的人群罷了，你懂的，雖然它們可能和中國城沒有那麼相似或完全一樣，但同樣的事情仍在發生。為什麼我們會把這些事，這些地，這些人看待為可消耗的？對，還有一件在遊覽時發生的事我差點忘了，就是當他們提到了一點關於那些隧道的傳說，就是關於當年中國人有隧道的這一傳說，他們也許有過也許沒有，不過那是大致基於這樣的事實：因為他們沒錢，所以他們會買一所房子，然後在裡面隔出很多小房間，所以很多人會擠在同一所房子的這些小房間裡。每個房間都有相通的門，所以當用警察想要來追捕他們其中一個的時候，他們可以通過任意一個小門逃跑。

张雪莱
我也記得那部分。

敬兒
這就有了另外一層意思。這有實在的隧道，也有傳說中的通道，但總而言之這些隧道體現的觀念都是：這些狡猾的中國人總能從我們指縫中溜走，那是一種貶低，就像說他們需要擠在這些陰暗狹小的地方苟活。

张雪莱
他們賊眉鼠眼的。

敬兒
對，他們只能這樣做，因為他們沒錢，也不想被遣送走，你懂的，所以我很喜歡隧道傳說這另一層故事。

张雪莱
我在想的是，好吧，我不知道這部分該不該被錄下來。我還不確定我是否做好了準備，但我確實想把這件事跟你分享。所以，我在網上發現了些關於這些隧道的東西，但他們把隧道裡的那些故事說的跟真實事件一樣，所以關於 Moose Jaw鎮的維基百科頁面上有一個關於隧道的部分，上面把那些胡扯的當年中國男人和家庭的經歷當成事實來寫。還有一篇Atlas Obscura的文章也把這些當成事實。所以我在思考該怎樣來小小的“干擾”一下這些對話；我不想在博物館裡做，因為博物館天生是一個有害的地方，我不能直接進去干擾。這就像是，自反。就像是，你懂的，博物館已經知道了這些問題，那已經足夠了。所以我就想到底該如何干涉？所以我想去編輯維基百科的頁面，那樣我至少可以在文字上修正那些偽歷史。而且你要知道這篇維基百科文上原本是沒有文獻引用的，而我在編輯的時候便加入了文獻引用，下一個來讀的人可能打算去隧道，所以閱讀我的版本之後他們在進隧道遊覽前會有一些知識準備。

敬兒
我對這個很興奮。黑客雪萊。

张雪莱
其實我有點害怕，因為多年前我試圖編輯維基百科的時候，那有種族歧視的維基編輯來反駁你的編輯。

敬兒
哦天哪，為什麼人們有那麼多閒心？

张雪莱
但我有一個朋友是維基百科的高級編輯，他有很多證書，我也許會問他這些是否行得通。但是，這也是我去交結Ashleigh Androsoff博士的原因，她在薩省大學任教，因為我想問她是否有更多資源，我可以把這些文獻引用給他。但我多半會在做這些事情的時候錄屏給他。

敬兒
那會太棒了。我能放這首歌嗎？

张雪莱
已經高潮了嗎？

敬兒
當你登陸時非常非常激烈的音樂。

张雪莱
我會在節目結束後把這些發給你，我真的在上一週想過這事。我需要做這件事。我不能讓那些謊言活在網上。

敬兒
我一直在想，我該給他們寫封信嗎？我該給隧道寫信嗎？所以我給他們發了封電子郵件，但是後來我又想，有些事情已經存在很嚴重的問題了，像現在這樣試圖把事情改良一點，但整件事情還是這麼有問題，真的好嗎？

张雪莱
我不知道你該怎樣干預那個地方。讓我們組織30個有色人種去那個遊覽然後質問他們，我的意思是，我希望我們當時能質問他們。我們進入隧道的時候明知道那是假的。對，我後悔沒有問更多問題。因為一部分原因我覺得是我們當時被震驚了。

敬兒
對，完全贊同。那隧道一時半會還垮不了。

张雪莱
真的，太可惜了，就在街對面，就是那個在Main Street街上的遺址有那麼美麗的歷史；它著實就在街對面，你問我Moose Jaw最震撼人的地方是什麼，不好意思，Saskatoon最讓人震驚的是什麼，我覺得有很多，但在我這次訪問和藝術家駐地之行中最具戲劇性的一個，還數這樁我特別感興趣的，就發生在離 Mooaw Jaw舉步之遙的最高法院裡的案件。就像這一真實的事件，這一曾經改變過多少人命運的就發生在離這個散播超杜撰的，純編造炒作的尼斯湖水怪似的故事的地方的不遠處。我認為那就是從視覺角度上對我衝擊最大的一點。好了，我想讓我們的節目完結在這另一個話題上，這可能有些短，而我們現在其實已經談過了它其中的一部分；那就是我們現在的位置是在哪裡？在經歷過隧道遊覽兩年過後，在目睹過逐漸攀升的反亞裔的種族歧視和與COVID-19有關的種族歧視後；就我們與所發生的一切之間的關係而言，我們目前的定位在哪裡？我猜我們在談到我們理想中的干涉活動時已經提及了一些，就像我們這些已經研究籌備了兩年的作品項目一樣。但是，這一點我還專門記在筆記本上的——我們能在隧道做導遊工作嗎？

敬兒
不，我想就像是我們上次談過的一樣。我們在上一期節目中談過假如我們在那裡工作會是什麼樣的？設想一下，如果那個遊覽項目的導演是中國人，然後說：“你！你們的祖先稱我的族人為苦力；就像你！你也一樣不是好貨”？你懂的，如果是這樣的話，他們該對沒有白人的聲音為他們講述這些故事作何感想？他們該有多不自在，該怎麼接受這些故事？

张雪莱
我認為他們會倒閉。沒人會花錢買白人內疚。

敬兒
對，那是真的。哦，我在哪？還和大家在一起嗎？

张雪莱
我還是不覺得，我的意思是，上次我們談的時候沒有任何答案，不過我覺得那沒關係。

敬兒
如果在頭一秒就有了答案的話，我倒回反而覺得奇怪，從某種意義上講；因為這裡面有太多東西，這還是很複雜，很凌亂的。就像是一種迷茫的狀態：我該做什麼？或者說，我該作何感想，我甚至不完全清楚，我大概還在分析中。

张雪莱
我想回顧過往的兩年，我由衷感謝那些在這過程中交談過的人，那些有興趣與我一切分享交流這一系列事情結果的人。我想這就是體現歷史和口頭歷史的力量的時刻。對，就像是你描述的那樣，關於事物是怎樣被關押在了博物館裡，它們與世隔絕，失去了與人類間之前的那種接觸，它們就在某種意義上，我這是不完全的引用你的話，死了。但我們如果不斷的談論這些事物來維持它們的生命，那麼它們的故事就會一直活著。而且我還認為之所以我們找不到答案，那是因為，你知道，我們這一些列探索過程就是答案。但我也覺得這很有趣，因為我們著實的幻想著一個沒有白人至上主義，沒有殖民主義的世界；沒人那麼做過。就像我聽說過有從事多年廢奴主義工作的人，他們設想的是：如果世界上沒有警察會怎樣？這一般是他們首要考慮的問題，而他們的答案是，我們不知道。我們從不，我們這一輩子都沒見它發生過，先人見證過，他們以這樣或那樣的方式生活。但我們得以重新改善彼此之間的關係，那是我認為非常激動人心的事。

敬兒
對。非常激動。而且也很可怕，因為我們就像走進了虛空一樣。對，而且需要彼此創新，想像，對吧？試圖去想像我們不曾擁有的，我們不曾懂的感覺，或者我們不曾親身體驗過的。

张雪莱
我認為，儘管當下的各種焦躁和恐懼，我仍然被人們正在做的，和他們正在試圖學習去做的事情所啟發。這有一種正能量，而且它很具傳染力。

敬兒
我覺得我的心裡有一部分認為；這不算是個答案，另一部分卻幾乎覺得就在我試圖去解析這一系列事情的途中，我會有一種想要對過去了解更多的慾望，就像是那對我來說會把所以頭緒凝結起來一樣，即使我知道那不會。這沒有一個標準答案，但這感覺就像是我可以知道事情發生的原因發生的方式而不用知道它之前又發生了些什麼一樣，就像這樣給我更多，給我更多。

张雪莱
好吧，這好似我們在電影中，在一部冒險電影中。 我們的尋寶目的是尋找種族主義的根源； 但是我們至今為止發現的所有線索都將我們帶到了其他地方。 你知道，

敬兒
這就是我們的談話。假線索。

张雪莱
就像你的公主在另一個城堡；而我們需要一同為我們倆拍一部紀錄片；然後這次冒險就是種族主義的根源；然後現在就是我們拍老式照片留念的時刻；然後這就是我們的歷險記。對，當然。

敬兒
而且還是“未完待續”，因為現在我們像一對超級英雄配對。

张雪莱
太搞笑了。這就像是有些時候你在電影裡看到，啊，現在一切都開始平靜下來了。然後當她們拍照片的時候高潮就來了，這很貼切。

敬兒
就像這樣嘟嘟嘟嘟。

张雪莱
對，啊，一切都太完美了。現在我得把這些閃拍下來。

Transcript (简体中文)

张雪莱
我想我在录了。我在录了。好。

敬兒
哦，上面显示的录制中。好，正经些，电台腔。

张雪莱
莱我简直不敢相信，还差几个月，就已经离我们上次节目几乎整整两年了。

敬兒
你上次来是2019年把？

张雪莱
2019年，2019年夏天。

敬兒
现在在回放起来也很有意思，因为那确实是我们俩友谊的开始。就像是记录一样？就像是：哇，这是我和雪莱进行的第一次冒险的记录，听狂野的。

张雪莱
冒险是个再好不过的词来形容。好，我很好奇，从我们几乎两年前的那次谈话中，你觉得对你来说印象最深刻的是什么？

敬兒
你是说我们录下来的那段谈话？噢，最印象深刻的是什么？老实说，就像简单的交谈已经是一件不容易的事了。就像你说的，感觉像我们谈话时是深陷其中，感觉我们在东拉西扯，但是当你回头聆听那段对话的时候，其实它很流畅，并且有一种结构性。因为像我们做的这种谈话性采访并不常见：能够做到在感觉自如的同时，在很多事情层面上达成共识；而且创造出了一个谈论这些话题的空间。因为自那次以来，我经常与你交谈；比如说我们会经常发一些无关紧要的短讯给对方，但那些短讯的话题都可以归结到一个“我们共享的小众兴趣”的分类下。而且我之前虽然喜欢自己阅读和思考很多东西，但是我从来没有和其他人探讨过这件事。所以那可能就是我印象最深刻的元素。我们的交谈显得水到渠成。

张雪莱
对。这一点挺不错的，我喜欢。

敬兒
我喜欢独自阅读和思考，但我不太喜欢跟他人探讨。所以那就是我觉得最突出的一点，我们俩的交谈显得很自然。

张雪莱
过奖了。

敬兒
你觉得呢？

张雪莱
我的意思是，回头听我们自己的声音感觉怪怪的，而且那时很久以前的事了。但是当时那种轻松的对话和我们想在的谈话没有太大区别。

敬兒
对，现在这次感觉上不像是“我才开始认识你”，而是“噢。我们已经是朋友了”的感觉。像是在同一等级上。

张雪莱
对对，那时我们第三次会晤了，那时很激烈的会晤。

敬兒
对，我是在你Calgary的展览上认识你的，然后你来了这里，我们又开车去了Regina。

张雪莱
我见到了你的父母。

敬兒
对。我全家。我们经历了一场暴风雨。

张雪莱
对，这就是我喜欢冒险这个词，形容的太恰当了，因为那确实是一场冒险。

敬兒
这在很大程度上是受了这些影响：你来这里有着很具体的理由，而且你有很明确的目的，你知道你想体验些什么，想寻找些什么。而我则是突发奇想的，我不会自发的去做，但是我很乐意跟你一起去，我非常高兴能有这个陪你的集会，你知道的？

张雪莱 我感觉像是在电影里一样：两个初遇的主角，立刻想要“对，我们想一起做事”。

敬兒
对。那叫什么？一见钟情？就像是浪漫喜剧：在两人初遇的那一刻，那才是故事的开端。

张雪莱
还有许多我们交谈内容的放面上，我经常会：“噢！我忘了这一点”。就像我们再谈苦力的时候，我完全忘了那部分。

敬兒
噢，对。那是他们在隧道游览的时候讲给我们的，对吗？那是源自于中文音译（苦力），意思是痛苦的力量？

张雪莱
那一点我还想更深入的了解，因为我质疑他们告诉我们的一切，到底哪些是真的哪些是假的。那段经历我至今仍在想：这在哪发生的？这真的发生了吗？

敬兒
就像是噩梦初醒的懵懂对嘛？

张雪莱
完全正确。但是我们至今仍然在考虑那段经历，而且在一年后COVID-19的背景下来研究这些事情显得尤其有趣。感觉上一切都被放大了，更合时宜，严重，紧急，危险；我认为这就是上一次节目录音中对我来说最突出的地方。我们当时能谈笑风生，但我不知道如果换做现在来录那期节目的话，我们还能不能笑成那样。

敬兒
对，那是事实。也许这是我自己的一种应激方式；这让我觉得很不自在。实际上这很荒谬。我需要对它一笑了之，因为现实之中发生这样的事实在太荒唐了。

张雪莱
对，这就是我第一个想问的问题：到底谁是这些东西的目标观众？两年了，我仍在纠结这个问题。

敬兒
那个隧道？隧道游览吗？我经常想，就像阴魂不散一样。我请他们连对“这只是一个景点项目”的事实都不佳规避了。可笑的是哪有两个游览项目，除了这个还有Al Capone那个。但那一个项目就非常戏剧化：有一堆演员拿着假枪之类的东西跑来跑去，各种惨叫各种砰砰嘣嘣，我记得的大概就这样。而这个“财富大道”，我想他们是想把它包装的更具历史性。因为那里面没有太多夸张的喜剧元素，除了一个机械老板以外；但其他的一切都没有相同规格的戏剧化，因为那本来应当是一次“历史性，教育性的体验”。但我觉得，也许去过的游客也由此同感：他们来了，游览完隧道，然后走了，感觉挺有趣，就像我的其他一大堆比较有趣的经历一样，这就了事了，对吧？我不知道他们有没有试图把它变得更具影响性，或者用以激发对这一类问题的深度探讨。

张雪莱
这很有趣，因为我刚读了史学家Brain Osborne的一篇文章，文中提到了一些小镇需要利用历史小说和神话故事来吸引游客。而Moose Jaw正是一个对在某些特定历史的研究上进行了大量投资的小镇。所以，一切都起源于发现那些隧道的人，他们想知道并证明这些隧道的故事，哪怕只有一丁点，你懂的，所谓的“有型的证据”。那家我感兴趣的咖啡馆有一些有趣的小故事，就是Main Street街对面那家；一些关于一群人因肇事相遇的轶事，那家咖啡馆有个连接隧道的暗门。还有一个，我想就在街头的那个酒吧，那里也是直通隧道的。关于那也有许多描述人们当年怎样为了躲避Moose Jaw严酷的冬天，便使用哪些温暖的隧道作为出行路线的轶事。但这些都知识平凡短小的故事；所以我很难说明它们到底是怎样被浮夸杜撰到今天这幅模样。而且我最近看见他们在筹募重新开业。

敬兒
哦，有意思，我没注意，他们主要说了些什么？

张雪莱
他们的口号是：“历史从不改变，不论你试图如何美化”。

敬兒
哦，

张雪莱
这是他们发在Facebook上的帖子。我认为他们的措辞很可笑。就像他们以毫无依据的徐娇游览项目的“美德”串改历史一样。不是吗？

敬兒
而且听起来很窝囊，就像是在说：“我们就是在呈现历史，但什么都永远不会改变”。

张雪莱
哦对，我想你是对的。我的意思是，就在当前世界这种政治文化背景下，你还敢叫一个亚洲人苦力？你懂的，就是这样的口号让我想起了我一直在思考的问题：像这样的“历史再现景点“就是最原始的假新闻。我的意思是，殖民历史本身就已经像是假新闻。但像他们这种在空间上无中生有断章取义，信息上以讹传讹的做法，看上去已经像欺诈了。但就像你说的，游客进了门，他们知识单纯看看；他们对这段经历几乎没有任何理性的批评。

敬兒
而且就像你说的那样，也就像我们在上一期节目中谈到的一样：他们含泪叙述着这个白人杜撰的故事，讲述着当年那些白人殖民者是如何虐待亚洲人的，这样一来很显然是像反衬出他们当今是如何清高。我在回想，当时有个人就问，“哦，他们不会是真的被逼到这些隧道里的把”。而且就连我们都在讨论这些故事的可信度。当时那些游客问：“哦，这些就就是货真价实的发生这些事情的隧道吗？”，他们的回答却是：“其实不是，这些事供暖的隧道，只是被我们改造成了景点，不过这故事是真哦，只是不是实际发生在这些隧道里的。” 于是游客便道：“啊，所以说这就不是我想象的那样正宗的体验。”

张雪莱
“正宗”是个有趣的词。我在这次项目中的一件作品在很多层面上就在讨论“正宗”。我在揣摩“正宗”的定义时候，就在想什么是正宗的历史：就说一段历史要怎样才能论作正史？我在想那些关于隧道本身的故事正史，而关于早期中国移民在Moose Jaw生存经历的故事却不是正史；但对于Moose Jaw的旅游业来说却是一段正史：那是一个正宗的表象，是一个白人致歉口吻的典例；是一个白人殖民者试图埋葬这段历史的典例。我也在想一些小细节，比如我们第一次去隧道的时候，我们当时仅仅是在嘲笑这些游览项目有多荒唐，不过现在我是确实为止震怒。举例来说，白人不曾开过洗衣房，所有洗衣房都是中国人开的，因此在这个行业中，被聘工人被剥夺了太多自主权。你懂的，人们在做生意。Ashleigh Androsoff博士有一段很棒的视频，视频中她谈到当她在游览的时候，她问过导游当年城里有多少家中国洗衣房，导游说宜家都没有。她当时就知道导游在撒谎，因为她之前查过人口普查报告，当年在Moose Jaw共有九家洗衣房，其中八家是中国人开的。所以基本上来讲，它抹杀了那些做洗衣房生意的人以及他们的故事，从而抹杀了这一部分历史和历史的自主权。我想这也是为什么我那么痛恨那个家伙的原因。那个家伙。

敬兒
我感觉这像一场电影；就像是导演在结尾，安插了一个无知的男人来问这样一个白痴的问题。但这也真正反应了这整个体验在传达信息上是有多没用。

张雪莱
我在仔细剖析他说的话，他想表达什么意思；他用的“被迫”一词其实本身没那么糟糕，只是听起来有点二一，但我还是烦他说的那一席话。但我同时也很讨厌那个导致这些事情发生的隧道游览；因为说白了他们的意思是：因为中国人现在活在地上了，所以情况没那么坏；即使中国人从来没被破到地下去过，对吗？不论现实，当你被看作是活在地下的人的时候，这就是糟糕。“现在中国人活在地上了所以种族歧视就不复存在了”正史这一怪异的二分法，使得同那厮一类的人能说出：没有那么糟糕吧？“的话。

敬兒
再次，我们试图揣摩隧道游览的意图，很显然，拥有一个简单、直截了当的故事会使景点项目更易推销。而且相较于深度解释各种错综复杂的政治系统镇压，这样的叙事会简单太多；可以概括为：“哦，不，他们经历了坏事情，他们住在地下，不过他们现在没事了，他们活在地标，这些是很久以前的事情。”我认为有一些尤其困扰我的地方是那里面有太多场景特效了，你懂的，各种音效，各种细节；哪有各种详细的道具布置，比如床啊，桌子啊，换洗衣服啊，篮子啊，等等。你几乎可以在整个游览中完全被这些特效吸引，表现得：“啊，看这个，好有趣好神奇。”有一部分最让人搞不明白：比如说你正在游览，突然间你就走到了尽头的宜家移民局；或者，你懂的，鸦片馆。这在他们想要叙述的这一个故事里面显得完全不合逻辑，让整个体验突然变得很不真实；尽管他们的买点全在于把这次游览打造成一个真实的体验，他们想让你觉得在游览的时候你就是穿越成一个早期中国移民工人；那就是他们意向里你游览隧道的时候本来该有的体验。

张雪莱
的确，他们觉得如果不让游客们扮演成签约的中国劳工，这个游览项目就没法办了。他们真的可以包含太多真实的历史元素而不用依赖于这些东西，显得很多余。对，我觉得这尤其突出了我们两年前讨论过的一点：他们压根没打算接待像我们俩这样的观众。

敬兒
对，对，正解，肯定的。

张雪莱
而且，你懂的，从某种意义上将，它很奇怪的将我们俩即影射为主题又影射成据外观者。想象一下，加入你是个白人，加入到这样一个纯白的游览团，那么中国人在这段经历中就变成一个抽象的概念；你可以在没有一个中国人，亚洲人，或有色人种的情况下完成整个游览。这的确巩固了他们这一概念：主导人种既是主要受众，其他所有人都是异类；这是主要历史，这是历史的一小部分，就是这样的二分法。

敬兒
这就像在学校里历史是怎样教给我们的一样：我们连配角都算不上。就像是，他们白人才是主心故事；而其余的一切，你需要想象，想象那些人是什么样的，尽管我们活生生的就在这里。我想趁着这个话题快速提起一下Tashme的故事。就像历史小说和个人经历一样，其可信度由你自己定夺。话说我有幸去访Tashme，位处Hope镇，BC省；那时加拿大最大的一个日本拘留所。我的游访亦是偶然，我原本只是去朋友那里过周末，他们一直想去参观那个叫Tashme博物馆的小建筑；所以我才得以前往，它完全不同，非常非常不同。它不像隧道一样，不是一个游览项目。基本上讲，从前有一个白人，他继承了这样一座棚屋，里面挤满了各种东西；他翻箱倒柜了一同，发现那些都是曾住在Tashme的人的一流物件，都是些古董。于是他便把这当作一个兴趣项目，以毕生精力来学习并保持关于Tashme的一切。令他尤其惊喜的是一张Tashme的老照片，那看上去就像一个有多个日本家庭组成的别致的小镇。他指出：你注意到，这里没有围墙，没有狱卒之类，但是他们聚集在这里肯定是有什么原因的。而至于为什么没人离开的原因，我联想到了隧道游览上那厮的问题“噢，他们被逼住地下的”。不过没有人拿枪指着他们的头，没人在他们门上加锁；但是它们为什么？为什么会住在这？为什么这些日本家庭被强行搬走并移到这个地方？而且事实上他们有离开的自由吗？但他们能去哪？他们是实实在在处于深山老林里；而且他们一开始需要徒步到那里，他们该怎样逃跑？我们从各种层面上收到了太多美国历史和媒体的影响，我以为美国的拘留所都是有铁丝网的那种；我们联想到的是各种暴行，最极端的那种，我们只能理解各种胁迫，各种障碍物和枷锁等等。因为我们几乎被教育得只能辨认出暴力，压迫，或其他非常极端的明显具体的元素。但凡是我们看到这些意料之外的东西时，在某种意义上就大大减少了其可信度。

张雪莱
但是你知道，我感觉在我们学习这些事情的同时，也了解到了你我之间一些绝美的事情。你懂的，就像是Moose Jaw和Saskatoon中国同胞的故事，他们的处境虽说是很可怕，但是那却是一些关于亚裔社群如何团结起来的美丽故事；同时我也联想到了你那个关于中国城大门的项目，以及这些事情是怎样发生的；又比如说，x年后，你该怎样向外人叙述这些扎根于伤痛的故事？对我而言，这是很典型的加拿大作风：因为这就像在维护这个国家平等的神话。但我同时也认为这些事情的定义大多数情况下被归结成了白人的那种定义：我联想到的是那些丝毫不受这些伤痛经历影响的人却决定着，就该怎样去衡量痛苦和苦难这方面而言；那些可以那些不能被深入延展。举个例子，Lynn Beyak参议院，我想她的姓是这么拼的，她在成为加拿大的参议院前在Harper总理的政党工作，实际上我想她是今年刚刚辞职的。这是发生在原住民真相与和解委员会成立的时候，成千上万的关于原住民们在印第安人寄宿学校系统的淫威下遭受的精神上，肉体上的百般摧残和性虐待的故事；数不清的严谨的研究并整理过的这类档案，着实被她以“这些被发现的恶行使得寄宿学校善意的初中显得黯然失色”草草总结。由此可见同情的局限性，和这类研究的局限性，我个人认为。因为不论你展示了多少信息，如果人们不接受，他们就能轻易的忽视这些信息。所以，要找到所谓的“证据”没有我想象的那样简单；我开始意识到依靠证据类的工作的局限性。

敬兒
我的作品是受到了你的来访，以及我们之间的这一系列持续的对话的直接影响；因为我感觉我这大半辈子里，我一直很难和中国人在加拿大的苦难这些历史产生共鸣。我想这是因为我这种对血统的太直接的认知方式：哦，我的父母是来自马来西亚的，而他们的祖先是很早以前从中国南方迁徙去的。但是那些来这里修建了铁路的，在金矿场洗衣坊卖过命的人却是别人的祖先。就算我是中国人，但我会觉得：哦，不，这样做不对；我几乎会觉得我像是在那别人的痛苦经历邀功，并且想迫使某种联系发生一样。所以说，这真的很难。即使我知道这些事情发生过，即使我知道那很苦。我不知道我是否做好了允许我自己去与这些历史产生共鸣的准备。所以我想在我制作这个作品的整个过程中，我考虑过很多关于祖先血统的问题，而且我意识到在我们大多数人的概念中，血统是一个有利可图的东西：就像有些人靠证明自己的血统来谋利一样，那简直是一种殖民主义的思考方式。因为他们（白人）抹杀了原住民的历史，并以特定的方法把他们分类；因此到现在原住民们想要单纯生活的时候，他们却需要证明自己的祖先，证明他们的身分和血统等等。所以这便导致我们把证明血统当作是：我能得到哪些好处？或者说我为了获利的目的证明我的祖先是被害者等等；这又归结回了向白人殖民政府证明自己了。所以当我意识到这点时我就想；哦，那完全不是我想做的。但我让这样的思考方式影响我太久了。

张雪莱
你倒是让我想起了一件我一直很想跟你讨论的事；就是在Atlanta的连环谋杀案发生之后，人们才突然意识到反亚裔暴力行为的存在：尽管我们的群体从很早以前就在呼吁这个问题了。尤其是去年，当COVID-19开始时，当COVID-19发生前，就算是在这里，你懂的，我看到中国城遭到亵渎，人们面临骚扰；但是要一直到某种暴力事件发生的时候，我们才有稍微多一点的爆光度，对吗？只有到这种地步反亚裔行为才会被承认是真实存在的。我一直在思考很多关于平息反亚裔暴力的事情，因为在我们这个庞大，庞大的群体里大家各有不同。它并不是单一性的，我看见许多上层社会的亚裔门声称他们有过此遭遇，但我不知道他们受的歧视程度上是否有异于那些低收入的亚裔们，那些没有档案记载的，工人阶级的，变性的，跨性别的，和女性亚裔们。对吗？我不知道，我只是一直在想如何平息这种趋势，想到他们在对待我们这拥有那么多迥然不同的历史文化背景和移民故事的庞大群体时，是怎样的缺乏区别，就这样完全把我们粗暴得裹在一起，混为一谈。

敬兒
“平息”是一个我没想过的，绝妙的词来形容当局发生的一切。因为我想我只是单纯的观察，并且从很多层面上感到困惑和沮丧，你懂的，现在发生的是非常让人难受的事情，但更令人不快的是那些更大的声音都来自于那些有钱有势的人，总的来说就是在这些暴力面前不是那么脆弱的人，这就像一种怪异的机会主义。

张雪莱
完全贊同。

敬兒
而且我觉得社交媒体上发生的一系列就像是一次“压迫奥运会”一样，一直持在续发生着，因为那样才能流行起来，那样才能有影响力，看起来才体面。你懂的，假如你默不作声，那就不好了，你必须发表些言论。但这就像是在事情本身上附加些好处，而不是“我能从中学些什么”。我想这就是我对血统认知上的一个转播；我对祖先的概念是“我能从我的祖先那里学到些什么”，我不需要从中得到什么好处，但这些经验教训，这些他们所受的挫折却能教给我许多关于我自己的权利和自己在世上的地位。对，所以这就是为什么当我看到他们以“停止亚洲仇恨”标签的形式来概括我生活中各种不同元素时会那么懊恼的原因，因为这感觉上是淡化了问题的本源。淡化是一个极好的词，我认为这种淡化中最龌龊的一方面便是当人们呼吁加强我们社区的警力，因为我们不需要更多警察。如果你浅阅下警察和中国人打交道的历史你就知道，我们不需要更多警力。我不记得我是否跟你讲过，当我们碰面探讨研究的时候，我拿到了一份Quong-Wing v. The King 的笔录，就是那桩启发我摄影作品系列的最高法院案件，因为他被划分成立“中国佬”而不能聘用白人女服务员，尽管他是英国国民。所以总而言之这便是一起种族压倒国籍的典例。但在法庭笔录中，反对他的主要人物之一就是Moose Jaw的警察局长。我特意裁下来这一段，每逢有人道 “警察帮助过中国人”的时候，我便把这一段发给他，说：“不，非也，这就是铁证”。对，这就是为何我们的社区不需要更多警力的原因，那完全不是问题所在。我同时也觉得“停止亚洲仇恨”的标签有些空洞，因为这样就使这整个趋势变成了以事故为基础的，使它变得孤立。它没有系统性的看待问题所在，就像是说“停下来，那样很坏”——废话，种族歧视本来就坏。

张雪莱
而且这根本就没有真正涉及问题根源。并且这很容易把责任缩减到：“我不支持亚洲仇恨，所以这事与我无干”。

敬兒
“事不关己，高高挂起。”

张雪莱
是的，我想这就是“黑命贵”（Black Lives Matter）的精妙之处，Land Back强调的是那些有待解决的，系统性的，关乎多个人群的问题。它宏观的看待整个趋势是如何形成的。

敬兒
我看到有人指出过：当“黑命贵”运动发生的同时，“所有命都贵”也冒了出来，但你没有看见过类似这样的用来反驳“停止亚洲仇恨”的反意见，因为停止针对某个事物的仇恨是以个人为出发点的，你做为一个个人，完全可以说“我不恨亚洲人”，那就无所谓了。当你想到“黑命贵”的时候，到底关于它的哪一点那么让人坐立不安？为什么他们歇斯底里的要以“蓝命贵”，“所有命都贵”这样的说词来反驳？因为它一针见血的指出了社会结构上的弊端所在。而且像仇恨犯罪这样的事情，有些人尤其专注这些，他们极力想要把更多的罪行划分到仇恨犯罪的归类下。仇恨犯罪的定义本来就很模棱两可，它很个体化；归根到底他们的结论为：“我们想要更多犯仇恨罪的人入牢狱”，与此同时又支持“黑命贵”，这倒是虚伪得很。就像去年夏天，大家都在嚷嚷削减警局和监狱的资金，然后突然间，你自己的社区受到袭击的时候，他们立马乱了阵脚，慌道：“哦，等等，我们这次没时间磨洋工了，实际上，我需要更多警力”。这就显出了这些标签有多么空洞，这很让人担忧，因为我们需要更加有教育性的方式，和可以多层面深度探讨这些问题的细枝末节的空间。但社交媒体不总是用来进行这一类似学习探讨的空间，对吗？因为这些平台太表演化了。

张雪莱
而且我发现一个怪象，就是那些从未提及起过自己东亚血统的人现在突然觉得自己有必要谈论这些事了；我个人觉得这并无不妥，因为每个人走的都是各自不同的学习道路；虽然不幸的是这些动力总是由某种悲剧引起，但我仍为那些自我意识觉醒的人们感到欣慰。唯一让我感觉奇怪的是，这一点我还没有足够长时间来思忖；就是以经历作为证据。因为现在我看见在社交媒体上有很多人讲述他们关于种族歧视和性别歧视等等的遭遇；我认为，再强调一次，这很重要；因为这就是我们分享经历的方式。但我同时也对这些以自身经历作为证据的叙事潮流感兴趣；再说一次，这里面有种可信度的元素，就像我们讨论过的一样“这是发生在我身上的事”。这让我联想到#metoo运动，对，“这件遭遇发生了，这遭遇发生在我身上”。对就是这一类似的，但归根到底这些运动的问题在于它们很难激发同情心。然后我便寻思有什么样的解决方案来继续这些运动；我发现了一篇多年前的关于这些事的文章，很有意思，我想那是九十年代的时候发表的，我们当时还是婴孩。

敬兒
我想你应该已经发给我了。

张雪莱
我发给你的那个，实际上我得归功于我的朋友Lorraine最早寄给我的。那篇文章叫We Will Not Be Used（我们讲不会被使用），对吗？她写的另外一篇呢——她是个律师，所以这篇是专门关于仇恨犯罪的。对，也许我们该把话题转向另一件我一直想跟你谈的事，那就是这病毒怎样影响我们的经历的。我感觉上期节目里我们谈的只有一点效果，因为那是紧接着我们的（隧道）经历，我们尚在回味中。但现在我们有了两年的时间来酝酿那次游览，和那些“历史再现”。所以，她写了这篇关于仇恨犯罪的文章，她在文中提到了仇恨犯罪和仇恨言论的影响力以及其传播方式。她也谈到了语言实际上是行动；其动机在于伤害他人。它们并非所谓的“没有任何影响的字句”。但是，我最近也在读 Sara Ahmed的一篇探讨仇恨是经济性的文章。这又使我联想到了我为这次展览做的一个作品：那是一个用大型的红色 LED灯写的单词“authentic”（正宗），用的是云吞字体。而且我知道那种字体会刺激到很多人，考虑到一切与这字体相关联的事情，对吗？但我也在想：招牌，符号这一类似本身并不带憎意，但它们怎样被使用，怎样被武器化，和他们的表达方式却能是极具恶意的。所以，仇恨并非静止的，它的侧重点在于传播方式和动向。而且我不确定将更多罪行划分为仇恨犯罪会使暴力不再发生。对吗？但话说回来，这很奇怪，因为我们想从这些答案中发散。

敬兒
也许因为所有被划分为仇恨犯罪的罪行大都其原因伊斯兰恐惧症和恐同症，这很奇葩，因为他们在避免为这些仇恨犯罪创造环境的更大的问题。而且他们仅仅关注与这些问题的产物，而不是在一开始就阻止它。而且这感觉就单纯是为了保住警察的饭碗。

张雪莱
根本别跟我提起Andrew Yang 这一党，以及他如何妄图推动当下的局面的。有件事我很好奇你的观点，之前我们谈到了“celestial”（天朝）这个词，我想我们俩之前谁都没被这么叫过，对吗？而且我们谈到了“coolie”（苦力）这个词，你被这么叫过两次，因为你去过隧道游览两次；我被那么叫过一次，因为我去过一次隧道游览。于是乎我们便讨论了一下这些过时的诋毁语，并对它们进行了了解。我们谈了谈它们对我们的影响，以及至今它们是怎样影响我们的——尽管那些是很古早的用语。我对这些事考虑了些许，因为我想起我刚搬到美国时第一次被诋毁，我当时还小，我并不知道那些话是什么意思，并不理解这些言语中饱含了多深的恨意。我当时的反应仅仅是：我正在学英语，这些到底是什么...

敬兒 因为字句本无意，但当我们赋予它们意义并开始使用它们的时候，它们才有实意。

张雪莱
绝对的，Sara Ahmed还提到过一件有意思理论，就是字句的“黏性”：就像语言和符号具有粘黏的特性一样，能使它们牢牢粘住仇恨，伤害，邪恶这些东西不放。在我们的对话中我们曾思考过为什么这些东西密不可分，以及为什么就算没有切身经历过，这些东西仍然对我们有影响。

敬兒
我很好奇，我去过隧道游览两次，记得第一次是和我家人一起去的。诙谐的是导游是白人，而整个游览团都是中国人；所以当时的情况就是这个白人导游领着四个中国游客参观这一系列东西，然后道“我要叫你们这群人苦力”，我想我全家上下没有一个人被这么叫过，比如被用这样的词诋毁过？但我同时也清楚，因为你可以很明显的看出：哦，虽然我没有真正的被人用这个词侮辱过，但我知道这是有杀伤力的话，这样很是不妥。然后我想在那个导游的脑子里也可能在鼓捣：“我是说呢，还是不说？这明摆在我的台词里写着，但我遇到这种情况该怎么办？哎呀呀，罢了，这只是词句而已，我猜我只能这样硬着头皮的尬演下去了”。当你提起“天朝”的时候，我不知道该怎样完全解释。我只是觉得，哗，这是一种怪异的感觉：去了解一个我不曾知晓的，曾经用来侮辱我的族人的词。我只是觉得，我很庆幸从没有人真正诋毁过我。但是那并不代表这些词自身没有份量，你懂的，但那不同的年代；假如我过那被歧视的痛苦经历，可能就不会那样困惑不解了。所以我觉得这之间缺少了一个步骤，而那些参加游览的白人们，更是缺了好几个步骤。

张雪莱
我觉得这个“置身事外”的过程很有意思，因为那些语句听上去觉得很陌生遥远。但是我在想那些语句是怎样死灰复燃的，就像它们的意境，比如它们的21世纪版本：比如像“功夫病毒”，“中国病毒”等等。从这种定义上来言，总有这样的新词语被创造出来，可以这么说。

敬兒
我不知道这两者间是否也直接关联。我在听Still Processing和New York Times广播的一期节目，那上面的两位主播都是黑人，他们谈到了 N开头的那个词，那个词就跟“苦力”在历史背景的层面上大相径庭。其中一位主播在节目开始时分享了这么一个故事：他在peloton软件上报了一个健身班，教练也是黑人，但是那个peloton班上其他所有人都是白人。教练在课上放的歌都是黑人艺术家的音乐，歌词中涵盖了大量的那个N开头的词。然后在那个只有白人虚拟空间里，他顿时感觉道很不自在；他感觉到在同一空间里与白人分享这个词很难受，在某种意义上他感觉像是在为其他人表演一样。我不知道这件事是否和我们谈的有关，但当我们去游览的时候，当团里只有四五个亚洲，中国人，而其余全是又老又白的人的时候，我们就清楚这种感觉。我想就是这种和“局外人”在同一空间分享这些敏感词汇，大异于和有过相同经历的人分享这些词的原由；前者让人感觉很不自在，几乎令人有一种聚光灯单独打在你身上的感觉。

敬兒
老实说，我当时并没注意到这点。而现在我却是对我们游览上的人群结构感兴趣的很。这很奇怪，因为我知道这样的事会发生，你也跟我说过这会发生。但当我着实听到那个词的时候，仍然感到怪怪的。

Still Processing是个很出色的节目，我暂时还没听过那一集，但我会去听的。而且你同时让我想起了Still Processing的副主播Jenna Wortham前不久前讲过的她的博物馆经历：她去了Monticello，是Jefferson的前居所，他也曾把那地方当种植园。她提到了在那个巨大的房子里的饭厅里，你能看到侧面墙上有很多小活板门，那就是奴隶们进出用的；尽管他们是负责侍奉和烹饪的。而正是这种入口的差别，这种光明正大的隐藏历史，这便和我们之前谈到的隧道的做法是如出一辙。而且在节目尾声，她也谈到了这个设想其实没那么糟糕，考虑到这个在原址上重建的博物馆是仅仅旨在代表一个被奴役的家庭的房子。而且你在仔细研究这个重建房的时候你会发现；这一点也是参观过这个博物馆的游客的观点：就是这座重建房仅仅是一座用于模拟历史的剧院，它天生无法真正捕捉到真实的经历。我认为这一点很有意思。

敬兒
这倒是提醒了我：其实有些经历你是不想和其他的人群分享的，尤其是针对你的族人的那些不好的经历，这归根到底就是“我不确定我是否有义务/做好了和你分享这段经历的准备”。尤其是以这种揭旧伤疤的形式呈现。这也让我想起了一个我听过的一个，我不记得具体是什么，好像是关于喜剧演员或电影之类的；但总的来说它提到了一些关于责任啊，创新啊之类的，关于创作作品是没有什么话题时禁忌的，但是我们有责任确保我们是以什么样的方式来呈现的；而且我们完全没有必要去揭任何人的旧伤疤。所以，凭什么这些历史博物馆能这么做？是何人让他觉得自己配做出这些选择和提供这样的体验？这样暴露的，显性的呈现方式真的有效吗？还是说有其他方式来传达同样的信息，但不是以这种制造更多伤害的方法？我们首先想到的例子就是“苦力”那套东西，很显然，而我感觉那已经算在“伤痛三级片”之类的范畴内了：“哦！我们必须使用这些材料，因为那很激烈，是历史上一些很暗黑很大尺度的材料，你需要切身体验它！除此以外你就体验不到”。难道这真的是叙述故事的唯一方法吗？

张雪莱
正是。 Eve Tuck有一篇跟棒的文章，她在文中呼吁暂停对伤痛经历的研究。我觉得那很有趣，因为它概括了很多我们所讲的，就像筒仓一样，那就是我们的故事的精髓。关于这个作品，我在Saskatoon有太多需要做的了，例如遇见你，那可能是这段经历的巅峰。我也得以会面许多人：我得以交结曾经经营Exchange Cafe的两兄弟之一的孙女，我也跟Golden Dragon的一位店长的一位女儿交谈过。而且我可以做这系列研究，这些研究像我展示了些了不起的历史，了解各个社群是怎样团结起来的；就如当年的“洗衣请愿”，大家团结起来一起向市政厅说：“不，我们不会付你这些种族歧视的洗衣税”。就像这样一些辉煌的故事。我们不会听到这样的关于反抗的故事，我们听到的只是受苦难的故事；然而至今仍有那么多的美丽的抗争和爱在发生着。而且你懂的，那些才是真正支持着人们奋斗至今到不同程度的元素；所以为什么爱，这样的公众的爱被广为流传和庆祝？你懂的，

敬兒
这倒是让我想起一些事。而且回顾上期节目的时候，实际上另外有一件事尤其突出：你说过跟类似Toronto的只有些近期华人历史城市比起来，大草原上有着博大，淳厚的华人的历史，因为像这边的历史可以追溯至很久远的年代。而且我好似从未曾仔细想过这些历史，因为在学校里，他们对这些真的只是一笔带过；他们至多只讲过一些关于铁路的历史。所以我总是觉得华人历史发生在其他地方。我们不曾真正学过任何具体的历史背景，我想这就是激发了我现在这样对当地历史产生的强烈学习欲望和珍视的小小动机之一。而且，当地历史总是被以一种很乏味的形式来介绍的，就像是：啊，当地历史，随即他们便掏出一张灰扑扑的印着老爷车或者旧街道的棕褐色照片。你懂的，那当地历史真真切切就是这样呈现的；然而这里有太多更酷的东西没有亮相机会。我以前从未真正参观过档案库，但很显然我现在经常去了，因为你上次发给我那么多别致的关于早期杂货铺之类的照片时，我的反应只是：这些都是以前开在这里的？什么？我不知道，我完全没概念。

张雪莱
当地历史蕴涵着太多力量了。而且有些东西让它们使人真的感觉很亲切，很有乡土气。对，因为它本来就发生在我的乡土上。但是这些事又发生在这（加拿大），你懂的，就像我们之前谈到过这里总有几层分离感。而且我觉得这是很接近的两层。我该澄清下，我的确想要详细解释解释当我说相较于Toronto，Saskatoon的中国历史更悠久意思：我想我会有这样的感觉，其中原因之一是因为，你懂的，Toronto这个城市的推倒翻新很频繁。这明显发生在了，举个例子，Saskatoon的第一座中国城身上，但即使这样，事物感觉上会在这里保留更久一些。而且我认为现在还能能看到60年代的建筑，相较于10年前修的东西，是一件很了不起的事情。这一点就是我的叫做Facades的作品系列想要表达的；作品是关于标牌，各式空缺的标牌，所传达的就是那种，你懂的，有些物件被移动过，但你不知道那是些什么东西的那种感觉；而且你在欣赏作品的时候需要像患有失忆症一样：时而些许的感伤，时而些许的期望，时而些许的悔憾。有时那也许会有一些可能会使人兴奋的好的变化，但我想这系列作品主要想表达的还是遗产的构成，什么才有资格被称为遗产，以及事物是怎样过于飞速的发展使得某些事物被划分为遗产之前就被取代。遗产总是被看作是被用来怀念的东西，而不是当下每天都在被不停创造着的。

敬兒 对，完全的。

张雪莱
而且我觉得这作品呼应了你那条关于创作者的责任的评语，这很让人激动，你知道吧？

敬兒
非常激动。我觉得，我的意思是，你的Facades作品，我对它的感触很深，就像我每每意识到在新事物取代一个位置的时候，我记不得那个位置之前是存在着什么一样。这现实有些可怖，假如我们不主动积极的去保护这些遗产，那么我们集体的记忆就会被抹去。

张雪莱
我想说的是，我并非那种为了怀旧而去保留某些东西之人。却是那种有兴趣，希望去探索，发现那里到底有些什么，缺些什么的人，那天我摘录了下这样一段绝美的话；因为在Toronto，“小牙买加”是一个正在被定夺的，有可能被归为该市文化遗产地址的一个社区。这很重要，因为纵观当今Toronto的各个社区，都是白人及富人区，因为遗产曾被当成一种工具来使用。但现在形势开始了变化。我们现在有了不同的社区来逐渐改变这一趋势，但那就在上周发生的一件大事。但是在Edge of Empire一书中，Jane Jacobs 有过这样一段有趣的话，她说：“哪些地方成为或不成为遗产的一部分，以及在这种认可过程中地方经历了哪些变革，是这场与身份和权力进行的战役中最关键的一场对弈。遗产地不单纯的象征着某些价值观和信仰，而就在这样的由地点蜕变为遗产地的过程中，这些地方的定义会被决定，引起辩论，引起反抗，而且社会的价值观念会面临挑战，并被再创”。所以这使我联想到Toronto正在发生的事，但我也同时联想到了隧道，因为我在那些隧道上花了太多心思...还有这段话是如何映衬那些隧道的，对吧？

敬兒
而且，因为像遗产保护这类工作实际也是在过去中工作，就有些像是在说：“哦，我们想要使这些事物保持静止以保留这些古老的东西；我们不想保存那些还活着的，还在发展变化的，还在被人们使用的东西”。这倒让我想起我在马来西亚游览Penang的时候，我们有一位亲友带领我们参观George Town，整个地区都是被联合国教科文组织列为世界遗产的。然后就在George Town中，我们参观了一个叫Khoo Kongsi的地方，那是一个船员家族的氏族庙宇；里面有一座绝美而结构复杂的祠堂，一个戏台，和各式长屋。当我们在那里面的时候，带我们参观的那位亲友便道：“对，我其实在这里面住过，我在这里长大”。他的名字是Khoo先生，然后再游览途中他向我们指出了各种东西；比如他会指着一张桌子说“我曾经喜欢坐这”，或者指向另一角落道“我们以前喜欢在那撒尿” 。他有类似这样的数不清的故事，但现在这里却空无一人。再没有人住在这里。这只是一个供游客参观的旅游景点。我想有时候他们会在戏台上做一些特殊表演或活动，但是，这再也不是像从前一样的工人生息的生态系统了；我感觉很伤感，很失望，失望在他们对遗产的这种竭力使它们保持静止，保持过去，而不是使其继续作为生活场所的保护方式。

张雪莱
我的意思是，我听有些人说过，虽然我不记得到底是谁说的，或者这话的版权归谁所有；但总而言之他们说 “凡是进入博物馆的东西就会即刻死亡”。而我认为这是一个再恰当不过的解释，因为其一：它暗示着这些物品在这之前是有生命的，我想到的像这些碗啊，所有这些美丽的花瓶啊，所有这些物价是你能在卧房几案上找得到的，或者你曾经会穿戴的；人们与它们接触的方式，对它们的概念在进博物馆前后是完全不一样的。这是当今博物馆里存在的很真切的弊病，而那些博物馆都在争先恐后的趋附这种形势。但是这就是隧道游览的不同之处，因为它们属于娱乐领域，它们几乎和博物馆不在同一个档次上。

敬兒
对的，对的，就趁着这个博物馆和古董的这个话头，我倒是想起了一些我和艺术家Jeneen Frei Njootli谈过的一些事。 Jeneen告诉我有一次Jeneen去访问一家我不记得是博物馆或者是艺术家自营中心的时候，Jeneen得以参观他们的仓库，而且Jeneen是Gwitchin族人。他们的仓库里收藏了些许Gwitchin族的工艺品，其中有一件藏品是一个几乎类似鞭子一样的木制乐器，上面有各种长长的流苏一类的东西。而当时Jeneen就兴奋道：哦天哪，我需要用它来演奏，我需要在室外大地上演奏，因为大地有太多年没有听见过这种乐器的旋律了，因为它演变了。而且我很喜欢Jeneen的这种思考方式，在Jeneen的心目中，那乐器是活着的，而且和大地有着紧密的联系，而这土地也怀念着这些物件，因为它们都被锁藏在博物馆里了。 Jeneen不仅仅是想“我得为了我的族人把这件物品取回，我也需要为思念它的大地取回”。我喜欢这种思维方式。

张雪莱
那是多么美丽的语言：像这样想要去呵护一种物件，而不是“我需要它，它是我的”，你懂的，它不是一种占有的语气。而从你的描述来看这就好像是那样做一种责任，就像是一种直觉，我认为那很有意思。

敬兒
对对，完全的。我好奇的是，在你的访问中，有哪些事情是最让你意外的？比如说你刚来的那周，因为那是你第一次来Saskatchewan省，所以你来这里见到了有哪些东西是你感觉是出乎你意料地改变了你的想法的事物？

张雪莱
实际上很有几样东西。我爱Saskatchewan的天空；那真的太美了。我其实真的是被这样如画的景致给震撼了，我不敢相信这是真的；我的意思是，我几乎一辈子都住在大城市里，而看到这样的景色着实是沁人心脾的美；这一点就是我那个广告牌作品想要表达的。就是这种毋论历史，生活在同一片共享的苍穹下的感觉，就是这种设定启发了我。还有一点，可能大概要归结于我在这里遇到的人们的美德。我在这里遇到了各式各样的人，就拿我去咖啡馆的时候做例子：每当我去咖啡馆时，就会有人问我来这做什么的？而我便会答道我在做关于Saskatoon市华裔的历史的研究。那有很多知道早起中国移民在Saskatoon受到的是怎样惨无人道的对待。就像有些人会说：“啊，对，那是段很黑暗的历史”，或者有些人会说：“哦，是的，当时这里事态确实不乐观”。而这种事情发生了不止一次，我就真的很惊讶，因为就像你说的，根据经验来谈，这种历史换成其他地方绝不是这样广为人知的。我知道我在比如说Toronto市是不会有这种经历的：因为我感觉那里的历史院校不会教这些东西，再加上那一波波的移民，你几乎需要与这些历史共存许久一段时间。换言之，如果你是刚来的，那你不一定有这样的时间来消化或奢侈来研究探索这些事情。所以我对这现象挺惊讶的，我不知道是不是这里的学校会教这些，还是这里的城市文化氛围熏陶的原因；但我真的很惊讶，除此之外没有太多其他的事情，不过这种“哦，我知道这段历史”的普遍认知度确实很出众。

敬兒
对，他们大多都知道这里的历史不光彩，即使他们不了解其中的细节。

张雪莱
对，我猜这就是为什么这感觉挺奇怪的原因，因为他们知道那历史不好，是的，那段历史就是不好。但话说回来，那些故事是有深厚底蕴的，其中也有很多好的地方。所以，就好像是又什么巨大的东西影响了这里的人们，让这些历史变成了人们的常识？也许？我至今还不知道那是什么。这有更多城市规划。而且我想你跟我指出了这点：那是我第一次听见“食物沙漠”这种说法。

敬兒
哦，真的

张雪莱
作为一个来城里不开车的人，想找一家便利店太难了。

敬兒
对，那可是一次正宗的体验，因为你住的 Airbnb在Riversdale，所以想超市那些地方很不方便。

张雪莱
对，我的朋友Tak来我那住了一段时间。要做晚饭的时候我们提着大包小包的杂货走了很远。我们去的时一家小一点的在20街上的环保便利店。但是我们想买些油来做饭的时候，他们卖的最小的是一加仑的，所以我们只能将就买那么一大桶吗？

敬兒
你想的是“我只在这待一星期，我又不是买这些来开餐厅的”。

张雪莱
我的意思是，对啊，我想住在这里没车的话该是多大的挑战。

敬兒
我觉得这里的历史对我来说是朦胧的，但这片区域隐藏了许多是有原因的。那些是市里的核心地段，这就是为什么中国城曾经建在那的原因，因为当时那地区很便宜，不受欢迎。但现在它却被缙绅化了，这是当今所有中国城的共同点。这些地方原本是人们可以负担得起开餐厅或开店的，但他们被逐渐排挤出去到其他地方，所以这就是为什么这片区域没有便利店的原因。

张雪莱
这可能是我被惯坏的原因，因为以前住的地方离便利店之类的商铺只有两三步路。

敬兒
我们现在谈的只是食物啊，便利店之类的。但人们提到发生在像Saskatoon这样的城市的甜甜圈效应：它太过于以汽车为中心了，什么东西都被排挤到城市边缘，像个大大的空盒子一样。而是中心主要是原住民人口，难民们，中国城等等，都集中在那里，而他们没有太好的便捷。

张雪莱
你知道，你倒是提醒了我另外一件事，我当时来Saskatoon时很惊讶得了解道这里原本曾有过一座原有的中国城，第一座中国城。

敬兒
我原本也不知道。是你告诉我的。

张雪莱
我也对此表示震惊，因为这就是发生在Toronto的，Toronto的第一所中国城真的是为修建市政厅而被拆除的。我一直知道这段历史；不过我不知道为什么我怀疑这是一起独立案件而不属于城市系统规划。就在我了解了Saskatoon的情况后，我便读到了许多关于“中国城的毁灭几乎是必要的”的一类研究文案，和许多不同城市的城市规划技巧。 Philadelphia也是类似的情况。这又一次的回到了我们之前关于“什么是可消耗的”的这个话题：谁的故事是可消耗的；这些被消耗掉的邻里是属于谁的，而谁又从中有利可图，得以现代化和发展？所以我很惊讶的发现那是一种模式而且已经蔓延到了各个地方。

敬兒
这是一种很奇怪的感觉：一些在你自己的城市觉得很熟悉的事物，但你发现却被近乎原封不动的复制到了其他地方。就像其他那些所有地方，我真的不知道这里原本有第一座中国城，而且当你发现关于它的文章时我几乎感到困惑，因为我不太明白你在那些对话中讲了什么，就好像是在说两件完全不同的事情一样，那确实是在我脑中一直纠缠不清的。这就是为什么我的作品会变成现在这样的原因，因为这片土地着实是健在第一座中国城的坟墓之上。实际上，我现在到想起来，我想当我们去市档案库的时候，和Ken 还有 Jeff有过一段非常有趣的对话？

张雪莱
他們是最棒的。

敬兒
他们很激动得把茶参上。 “我们有客人了”。

张雪莱
他们太和善了。 Saskatoon市档案库我们爱你。

敬兒
对，他们说那是第一次有纪录的城市更新改化的实例。我们在我的节目里已经谈过了这些；但当我从你想我推荐的“优良白人父母”广播中找到这其中的联系时，那感觉太奇怪了。我当时就道，等等，第一座中国城是为了修高中而被摧毁的？然后又改建成了技术学院。然后总是这样些疑问：什么是可消耗的？它们为什么可消耗？因为中国人很肮脏，他们有病，他们吸毒，他们犯罪率高等等。我们从中可以看到在历史上被单独针对的人群，至今仍存在着这一类似的刻板印象，只不过是针对不同的人群罢了，你懂的，虽然它们可能和中国城没有那么相似或完全一样，但同样的事情仍在发生。为什么我们会把这些事，这些地，这些人看待为可消耗的？对，还有一件在游览时发生的事我差点忘了，就是当他们提到了一点关于那些隧道的传说，就是关于当年中国人有隧道的这一传说，他们也许有过也许没有，不过那是大致基于这样的事实：因为他们没钱，所以他们会买一所房子，然后在里面隔出很多小房间，所以很多人会挤在同一所房子的这些小房间里。每个房间都有相通的门，所以当用警察想要来追捕他们其中一个的时候，他们可以通过任意一个小门逃跑。

张雪莱
我也记得那部分。

敬兒
这就有了另外一层意思。这有实在的隧道，也有传说中的通道，但总而言之这些隧道体现的观念都是：这些狡猾的中国人总能从我们指缝中溜走，那是一种贬低，就像说他们需要挤在这些阴暗狭小的地方苟活。

张雪莱
他们贼眉鼠眼的。

敬兒
对，他们只能这样做，因为他们没钱，也不想被遣送走，你懂的，所以我很喜欢隧道传说这另一层故事。

张雪莱
我在想的是，好吧，我不知道这部分该不该被录下来。我还不确定我是否做好了准备，但我确实想把这件事跟你分享。所以，我在网上发现了些关于这些隧道的东西，但他们把隧道里的那些故事说的跟真实事件一样，所以关于Moose Jaw镇的维基百科页面上有一个关于隧道的部分，上面把那些胡扯的当年中国男人和家庭的经历当成事实来写。还有一篇Atlas Obscura的文章也把这些当成事实。所以我在思考该怎样来小小的“干扰”一下这些对话；我不想在博物馆里做，因为博物馆天生是一个有害的地方，我不能直接进去干扰。这就像是，自反。就像是，你懂的，博物馆已经知道了这些问题，那已经足够了。所以我就想到底该如何干涉？所以我想去编辑维基百科的页面，那样我至少可以在文字上修正那些伪历史。而且你要知道这篇维基百科文上原本是没有文献引用的，而我在编辑的时候便加入了文献引用，下一个来读的人可能打算去隧道，所以阅读我的版本之后他们在进隧道游览前会有一些知识准备。

敬兒
我对这个很兴奋。黑客雪莱。

张雪莱
其实我有点害怕，因为多年前我试图编辑维基百科的时候，那有种族歧视的维基编辑来反驳你的编辑。

敬兒
哦天哪，为什么人们有那么多闲心？

张雪莱
但我有一个朋友是维基百科的高级编辑，他有很多证书，我也许会问他这些是否行得通。但是，这也是我去交结Ashleigh Androsoff博士的原因，她在萨省大学任教，因为我想问她是否有更多资源，我可以把这些文献引用给他。但我多半会在做这些事情的时候录屏给他。

敬兒
那会太棒了。我能放这首歌吗？

张雪莱
已经高潮了吗？

敬兒
当你登陆时非常非常激烈的音乐。

张雪莱
我会在节目结束后把这些发给你，我真的在上一周想过这事。我需要做这件事。我不能让那些谎言活在网上。

敬兒
我一直在想，我该给他们写封信吗？我该给隧道写信吗？所以我给他们发了封电子邮件，但是后来我又想，有些事情已经存在很严重的问题了，像现在这样试图把事情改良一点，但整件事情还是这么有问题，真的好吗？

张雪莱
我不知道你该怎样干预那个地方。让我们组织30个有色人种去那个游览然后质问他们，我的意思是，我希望我们当时能质问他们。我们进入隧道的时候明知道那是假的。对，我后悔没有问更多问题。因为一部分原因我觉得是我们当时被震惊了。

敬兒
对，完全赞同。那隧道一时半会还垮不了。

张雪莱
真的，太可惜了，就在街对面，就是那个在Main Street街上的遗址有那么美丽的历史；它着实就在街对面，你问我Moose Jaw最震撼人的地方是什么，不好意思， Saskatoon最让人震惊的是什么，我觉得有很多，但在我这次访问和艺术家驻地之行中最具戏剧性的一个，还数这桩我特别感兴趣的，就发生在离Mooaw Jaw举步之遥的最高法院里的案件。就像这一真实的事件，这一曾经改变过多少人命运的就发生在离这个散播超杜撰的，纯编造炒作的尼斯湖水怪似的故事的地方的不远处。我认为那就是从视觉角度上对我冲击最大的一点。好了，我想让我们的节目完结在这另一个话题上，这可能有些短，而我们现在其实已经谈过了它其中的一部分；那就是我们现在的位置是在哪里？在经历过隧道游览两年过后，在目睹过逐渐攀升的反亚裔的种族歧视和与COVID-19有关的种族歧视后；就我们与所发生的一切之间的关系而言，我们目前的定位在哪里？我猜我们在谈到我们理想中的干涉活动时已经提及了一些，就像我们这些已经研究筹备了两年的作品项目一样。但是，这一点我还专门记在笔记本上的——我们能在隧道做导游工作吗？

敬兒
不，我想就像是我们上次谈过的一样。我们在上一期节目中谈过假如我们在那里工作会是什么样的？设想一下，如果那个游览项目的导演是中国人，然后说：“你！你们的祖​​先称我的族人为苦力；就像你！你也一样不是好货”？你懂的，如果是这样的话，他们该对没有白人的声音为他们讲述这些故事作何感想？他们该有多不自在，该怎么接受这些故事？

张雪莱
我认为他们会倒闭。没人会花钱买白人内疚。

敬兒
对，那是真的。哦，我在哪？还和大家在一起吗？

张雪莱
我还是不觉得，我的意思是，上次我们谈的时候没有任何答案，不过我觉得那没关系。

敬兒
如果在头一秒就有了答案的话，我倒回反而觉得奇怪，从某种意义上讲；因为这里面有太多东西，这还是很复杂，很凌乱的。就像是一种迷茫的状态：我该做什么？或者说，我该作何感想，我什至不完全清楚，我大概还在分析中。

张雪莱
我想回顾过往的两年，我由衷感谢那些在这过程中交谈过的人，那些有兴趣与我一切分享交流这一系列事情结果的人。我想这就是体现历史和口头历史的力量的时刻。对，就像是你描述的那样，关于事物是怎样被关押在了博物馆里，它们与世隔绝，失去了与人类间之前的那种接触，它们就在某种意义上，我这是不完全的引用你的话，死了。但我们如果不断的谈论这些事物来维持它们的生命，那么它们的故事就会一直活着。而且我还认为之所以我们找不到答案，那是因为，你知道，我们这一些列探索过程就是答案。但我也觉得这很有趣，因为我们着实的幻想着一个没有白人至上主义，没有殖民主义的世界；没人那么做过。就像我听说过有从事多年废奴主义工作的人，他们设想的是：如果世界上没有警察会怎样？这一般是他们首要考虑的问题，而他们的答案是，我们不知道。我们从不，我们这一辈子都没见它发生过，先人见证过，他们以这样或那样的方式生活。但我们得以重新改善彼此之间的关系，那是我认为非常激动人心的事。

敬兒
对。非常激动。而且也很可怕，因为我们就像走进了虚空一样。对，而且需要彼此创新，想像，对吧？试图去想像我们不曾拥有的，我们不曾懂的感觉，或者我们不曾亲身体验过的。

张雪莱
我认为，尽管当下的各种焦躁和恐惧，我仍然被人们正在做的，和他们正在试图学习去做的事情所启发。这有一种正能量，而且它很具传染力。

敬兒
觉得我的心里有一部分认为；这不算是个答案，另一部分却几乎觉得就在我试图去解析这一系列事情的途中，我会有一种想要对过去了解更多的欲望，就像是那对我来说会把所以头绪凝结起来一样，即使我知道那不会。这没有一个标准答案，但这感觉就像是我可以知道事情发生的原因发生的方式而不用知道它之前又发生了些什么一样，就像这样给我更多，给我更多。

张雪莱
好吧，这好似我们在电影中，在一部冒险电影中。我们的寻宝目的是寻找种族主义的根源； 但是我们至今为止发现的所有线索都将我们带到了其他地方。你知道，

敬兒
这就是我们的谈话。假线索。

张雪莱
就像你的公主在另一个城堡；而我们需要一同为我们俩拍一部纪录片；然后这次冒险就是种族主义的根源；然后现在就是我们拍老式照片留念的时刻；然后这就是我们的历险记。对，当然。

敬兒
而且还是“未完待续”，因为现在我们像一对超级英雄配对。

张雪莱
太搞笑了。这就像是有些时候你在电影里看到，啊，现在一切都开始平静下来了。然后当她们拍照片的时候高潮就来了，这很贴切。

敬兒
就像这样嘟嘟嘟嘟。

张雪莱
对，啊，一切都太完美了。现在我得把这些闪拍下来。

Transcript (English)

Shellie Zhang
I think I'm recording. I'm recording. Okay.

Respectfulchild
Oh, it says recording. Okay, we're official. Radio voice.

Shellie Zhang
I can't believe it's been, what, almost two years now. It's a few months away from.

Respectfulchild
So was it 2019 when you came?

Shellie Zhang
2019.Summer 2019

Respectfulchild
It was also funny to listen back on that, because that was literally like the beginning of our friendship. So like a record? And then it's like, oh, here's a record of this first adventure that me and Shellie went on, which was wild.

Shellie Zhang
Adventure is also such a good word. Okay, I'm curious what from our conversation now, almost two years ago stood out the most for you?

Respectfulchild
From that recorded conversation? Oh, what stood out the most? Honestly, the like, ease of conversation is a is a big thing. Like, like how you said, it felt like we were in the moment, it felt like we were all over the place, but you listen back and actually have like a flow and like a cohesive sort of structure to it. Because that's not always the case with like doing those kinds of interviews and conversations. So yeah, just being able to like feel comfortable, and also kind of like on the same page about a lot of these things, and to have like a space to talk about that. Because now since that time, I talk quite regularly to you. And like, we text each other about pretty random things. But they're all they all fall under this umbrella of niche interests that we have. And I didn't really, I kind of didn't really have that before I like I'm pretty sure like thinking back. I was probably like stuff that I would like read and like think about on my own, but I wasn't really like talking about them with someone else. So that's probably what stands out the most. We just like, it fell into place.

Shellie Zhang
Yeah. That's a nice thing to stand out, I like that.

Respectfulchild
I would like read and like think about on my own, but I wasn't really like talking about them with someone else. So that's probably what stands out the most. We just like it fell into place.

Shellie Zhang
Nice thing to say.

Respectfulchild
What about you?

Shellie Zhang
I mean, it was weird to hear our voices and then to be like, this was so long ago. But same the ease and conversation like it wasn't too different from conversations we have now.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, it didn't feel like a "I'm just getting to know you" and now it's like "oh we're friends" and it like already felt like the same level.

Shellie Zhang
Yeah. Yeah. By then, that is that was like our third time hanging out. They were intense hangouts.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, it was like, I met you at your show in Calgary and then you came here and we drove to Regina.

Shellie Zhang
I met your parents.

Respectfulchild
Yeah. My whole family. We went through rain storm.

Shellie Zhang
That's why I'm like adventure, such a good way to describe it, because it was very much that.

Respectfulchild
It was very much influenced by the fact that you had like a very specific reason for coming here, and you already had like that agenda of what you wanted to try and like, find or like, what you were looking for. And it was, I guess, like, fortuitous or something that it lined up with me being like, I want to come along too. Like, I wouldn't, I was glad to have the opportunity to tag along, you know?

Shellie Zhang
It felt like a movie where it's like, two protagonists just meet and they're like, we're going to do this together.

Respectfulchild
Yeah. What's that called? Meet cute? It's like in romantic comedies. It's like the moment when the two characters meet. And that's like the beginning.

Shellie Zhang
There was also a lot of stuff content wise we talked about, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, I forgot about that". Like when we talk about coolie. I was like, I completely forgot about that.

Respectfulchild
Oh, yeah. It was during the tour that they explained to us, was it? That it was like a Chinese word? Like it came from coolie (苦力) bitter strength?

Shellie Zhang
Which I want to look up a bit more, because I just questioned everything they told us in terms of what is truth and what is not true. It's it's still kind of the experience where, did this happen?

Respectfulchild
What sort of fever dream was it?

Shellie Zhang
Exactly, exactly. But I feel like we've been thinking about this experience still a lot and it's kind of interesting to consider in the context of COVID, a year later. It feels like everything is more amplified, timely, serious, urgent, dangerous. I think that's what also stood out to me from the previous recording. we were able to laugh and I don't know if we did that now, I don't know if we would laugh the same amount.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, that's true. Although it is kind of my, it's like a coping mechanism or something with me, it's like this is uncomfortable. It's preposterous, actually. I need to laugh at it because it's so ridiculous that this was a real thing that happened.

Shellie Zhang
Yeah. The first question I wanted to talk about is this, like, who is the intended audience for this? Because its again, it's been two years and I'm still processing that question so much.

Respectfulchild
Of the Tunnel? Tunnel tour? I think about it a lot. Like it's like haunting me. I guess because it's so, I don't think they even try to hide the fact that they're just like a tourist attraction. It's funny that there's like the two tours, there's the Al Capone one. And that one's like, really dramatized, like, there's like people running around with fake guns and stuff being like, Oh, no, like, bang, bang, or something like, that's what I kind of remember. And then Passage to Fortune, I think almost gets portrayed as more historical because they don't do the over the top, even though there's that animatronic boss, and, you know, all those other things. But it's like, because it's not dramatized to that same effect. It's supposed to be like, oh, here's, like, historical educational experience. But I feel like probably most people that go to it, they go through it, and then I come out, and they go, that was interesting, like, put that into my collection of interesting experiences. And that's it. Right? And I don't know that they're trying to impart any sort of like extra impact or like just further discussion about any of those issues.

Shellie Zhang
It's interesting, because I was reading this one essay by historian writer in Brian Osborne, where he talks about the need that towns have used with historical fiction and mythology to create tourism, basically. And Moose Jaw was one town that invested a lot of money and research to like, look into this specifically in the viability. And so it started with someone they saw the tunnels, and then they wanted to see what the stories were about it. If there was any, you know, quote, unquote, tangible evidence that these things happened. There were interesting stories like the Cafe that I was interested in, which is that One Main street right across the street, there was a story like anecdotal encounters from the people who led this, that there was an underground door there where people could go from the restaurant to the tunnels, basically. And then there was another one, there's a bar a little bit up the street, I believe, where you've just go through the tunnels. And they were like anecdotal stories where people would say in the harsh Moose Jaw winters people would use the tunnels is a warmer way to travel and stuff like that. But these are all sort of one off stories a little bit. So it's hard to say how sensationalized they were exactly but it's just weird that it's gotten to this point of what it is now. And I saw recently they did a new campaign because they're going to reopen.

Respectfulchild
Oh, interesting. I have not paid attention to, what it what does it say?

Shellie Zhang
The campaign is, "history never changes, no matter how much light you try to shine upon it."

Respectfulchild
Oh.

Shellie Zhang
This is a this was in one of their Facebook posts. I think. It's just such a funny use of wording because it's like, you've changed history by virtue of this inaccurate tour. RIght?

Respectfulchild
It also sounds so defeatist, like because they're like we're presenting history but nothing's going to ever change.

Shellie Zhang
Oh, yeah, I guess you're kind of right. I just mean, how are you going to call Asian people coolies with everything happening in the world right now? You know? you know, it's This slogan sort of made, or this post, I suppose sort of made me think a little bit where I've been thinking about, like, the sites of historical reenactments as the original fake news. I mean, colonial history is just like fake news already. But in terms of what the spaces passed down a little bit, and then how they're digested, like, it seems so fraught already, but you just, you know, kind of, like you said, people go through the door, and they just take it in, and there's no criticality to what that sort of experience was a little bit.

Respectfulchild
And because like you said, like, we talked about it in that old episode, too, like they get to tear tell their version of the story like so they get to present how white settlers were treating these people and they can present them in whatever light so obviously, a more favourable light. I was thinking back on, like, when that one guy asked that question that was like, "Oh, they weren't, like really forced into these tunnels". And even we were talking about believability. Like when they were like, "oh, were these like, the literal tunnels where this happened?" And they're like, "actually, no, these were like heating tunnels, but we've made it into this like tourist place, but like, it was a real story. It just didn't actually happen right here" and they're like, "Oh, so it's like not as authentic of an experience as I thought anymore.

Shellie Zhang
Authentic is such an interesting word. And I have a piece that's in this project that's really about authenticity in a few ways. But I was thinking about authenticness a little bit in this like definitions of what is authentic history, like how did how does one quantify an authentic history? And I was thinking the tunnels are an authentic history, not an authentic history of what early Chinese settlers experienced and how they lived in Moose Jaw. But it's an authentic history of the tourism industry in Moose Jaw. It's an authentic representation, an example of white apologetic narratives. It's an example of white colonialism relegating this experience into the past. And I was thinking a little bit in terms of like, again, we were so, we were just mocking how ridiculous it was when we first went but I'm really angry about it now. For instance, white people didn't own laundries, it was all Chinese people who owned laundries and so the workers in that space as indentured laborers takes away so much autonomy. You know, folks were are running businesses. There's a really lovely video with Dr. Ashleigh Androsoff and she talks about how when she was on the tour, she asked the tour guide, how many Chinese laundries were in the city. And the tour guide said none. And she knew that was inaccurate because she's checked the census before. And there were nine laundries in Moose Jaw at that time, and eight of them were Chinese. And so it basically stripped away this component of history and this autonomy of history or any by taking away the people who started those businesses and stripping that story. And I think another reason why I'm really mad is thinking about that guy. That guy.

Respectfulchild
It also feels like a movie, the way that there was this one ignorant man planted there at the end to ask this ignorant question. But it also really represented how ineffective the message of that entire experience.

Shellie Zhang
I was really dissecting what he said, in terms of what does it mean, when that phrase "forced" is not really that bad, sort of looks like, but I'm upset at what he said. But I'm also upset at the tunnels for enabling that because it's essentially saying that because Chinese people are on the surface now, it's not that bad, even though there was never that forced underground element, right? Where it's like, this is what bad looks like when you can't, when you are underground people. And now there are Chinese people on the surface therefore racism does not exist anymore. So it's this weird dichotomy, that enables people like this this dude to be like, wasn't that bad?

Respectfulchild
Again, we're like trying to speculate what is the intention of the tunnel tours, but obviously, to like be marketable for like a tourist attraction, it's nice to have like a simple, straightforward narrative to tell. And it's way easier to tell that, that bring in complex layers of all these other systemic oppressions, it's like, "No, no, they went through a bad thing. They lived underground. Now they're okay, they are above ground. And it was a long time ago." I think something that really bugs me about it is how much of a spectacle it was because of, you know, there's like sound effects. And there's all these like details. There's like a really detailed setup, like all these beds and tables, like laundry, baskets, everything. And so you can almost just get fixated on that walking through there and be like, "Oh, look at all this. Like, how interesting how fascinating." And part of it doesn't make sense because you're walking through it, suddenly, you end up in a an immigration office at the end, or like, you know, opium den, and it doesn't make sense why that was in their except for the fact that they wanted to just tell this one narrative story. So then you're suddenly like, it just heightens the fact that it doesn't feel real. Even though it seems like they try to sell it as if you're going to experience something that was real, like, oh, you're going to experience what it felt like to be these early Chinese migrant workers. And that's what you're supposed to get through, like going through this tour.

Shellie Zhang
Really, they also couldn't do this tour without making the audience participants as the indentured Chinese labourers. They really could tell so many of the historical elements they could do without doing that was really kind of unnecessary. Yeah. And I think it really speak out the point we spoke about two years ago, where it's like, they didn't consider people like us to be the audience.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally.

Shellie Zhang
And then this weird projection of, we were both the subject and these external viewers, you know, in a way. So like, imagine if you go on that tour, and it's all white people, it's like Chinese people become an abstract in that experience. You could do that tour and there would be not a single Chinese person, Asian person, person of color. It really enforces the idea that whoever is the main audience is the main person who is being directed to, everyone else is an other. This is the main history. This is a segment of history, this dichotomy.

Respectfulchild
That's kind of how history gets taught to us, like in school, eh, we're not even really side characters. Like, they are the main story. And then everything else is just like, you have to imagine like what are these people like, but it's like we are right here. I want to quickly bring up Tashme while we're still on this subject about I guess, like historical fiction or experiences and like believability and stuff. So I had the chance to visit Tashme, it's in Hope, BC. And it was the largest Japanese internment camp in Canada. It was kind of just by chance; I was there for weekend with like some friends. And they had been wanting to check out there was like this little building that was like the Tashme museum. So I got to go in there. It's totally different, like very, very different. It's not like this tour or anything like that. And basically, the way it came about was like this, this white guy, he like inherited this shed, and it was just like, full of this stuff. And as he went through it, it was just like literal artefacts from the people who had lived in Tashme. Like just just like stuffing all their old things in there. He just like it became his own personal lifelong passion project to learn everything he could about Tashme to like preserve all this stuff. And there was one thing that really stood up was that they had old photos of Tashme, and it just kind of looks like this very neat little town of all these like Japanese families living together. And he pointed; he was like yeah, you notice, like, there's no fences, like guards or anything like that. But like, there's a reason why they were all put there. And the reason that no one's leaving, and it was think I was thinking about that, when comparing it to that man's question at the tour being like, Oh, they weren't forced to live underground. Like no one was like pointing a gun to their head, or like, you know, closing these like locking these doors on them. But like, why were they? Why were they living there? Why were these like Japanese families forcefully, like removed and put into this place? And like they technically have the freedom to leave? But where would they go? They are literally like in the middle of the mountains. And they had to like walk there in the first place, and how would they get away. We're so influenced in some way on a lot of ways by like American history and media. And I think a lot of American internment camps, they do have like those like barbed wires. And we think of those kinds of atrocities only, like the most extreme ways, and we can only really comprehend, that's what forced looks like that you have to have these like barriers, these locks, whatever, we're almost taught to only recognize, like violence, or force, or those things being like very extreme and concrete ways. And then anything else is like it takes a week takes away the believability, in a sense.

Shellie Zhang
But you know, there are like beautiful things that I feel like we got to learn about you and I was we were learning about these, you know, the stories of like Chinese folks in Moose Jaw or the Chinese folks in Saskatoon, like their conditions were terrible, but they were like really beautiful stories about how communities came together or I think about your project with the gate and how this happened, you know, X amount of years later, like how do you how do you bring a story that's really rooted in a bit of trauma outside of that? To me, it's such a Canadian thing, because it's sort of like preserving the myth of equity in this nation. But I also think these definitions are too often subject to white definitions. Like I think about people who are unaffected by these experiences defining what is extendable, and what isn't, in terms of how to quantify pain and suffering, you know. Like I think about Senator Lynn Beyak, I think is how you pronounce her last name. And she was part of Harper's party before she was on the Senate of Canada for like, I think she just resigned this year, actually. But it was during when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission came out. And it's like, this is this rigorous, rigorous research and collection of all these stories and experiences of physical, mental and sexual abuse that happened in residential schools and she literally just summarized it by saying that these findings overshadowed the good deeds and intentions of residential schools. And it's like, it really sort of shows you the limitations of empathy, and the limitations of like research, I think, because regardless of presenting this information, if people aren't receptive to it, they can just dismiss them so, so easily. So finding, quote, unquote, proof does not work in a way and I feel like I'm starting to, to realize the limitations of evidence based work.

Respectfulchild
My project was very directly influenced by your visit and all of our conversations that we had continuing since then, because for most of my life, I think I've had a hard time feeling connected to a lot of like Chinese struggles historically in Canada. And it was because of this very literal way of thinking about ancestry being like, Oh, my parents are from Malaysia, and their ancestors from a long time ago are from like southern China, but it's someone else's ancestors that built the railways that came into like the goldmine that worked in the laundry, someone else. And even though I'm Chinese, I was like, Oh, no, it, it would feel wrong to say like, almost like, I'm claiming ownership of someone else's struggles, and trying to, like, make that connection happen. So I always, yeah, I had a really tough time of being like, I know that these things happen, I know that they were like, hard. I don't know, if I feel like I am allowing my going to allow myself to, like, feel connected to that. And, yeah, I think like, throughout, like my own project, I was thinking a lot about ancestry and, and realizing a lot of that the way that's like, conceptualized for us is so in terms of like that you benefit from ancestry, like that people claim ancestry for benefit is like such a colonial construct, because of the ways that you know, that they've like, erased, you know, Indigenous ancestry and then decided to, like categorize them and catalogue them in a very specific way. So that when people wanted to just like be able to live, they had to, like, prove what their ancestry was, they had to prove their status, their blood, quantum whatever. So then we end up thinking only of ancestry in terms of, can I claim a benefit? Or can I claim like hurt and victimization, for benefit, like it all, like leads back into like proving yourself to like the white settler colonial government. So realizing that was like, Oh, that's not what I'm even trying to do here. But I've let that that thinking influence me for so long.

Shellie Zhang
You kind of bring up something that I'm actually curious to speak to you about, which is after the murders in Atlanta, for instance, there has been a sudden recognition of anti-Asian violence, even though again, our communities have been talking about this for the past forever. But specifically, also this past year, when COVID started, before COVID started, even here, you know, we've seen Chinatowns desecrated, people were facing harassment, and now it's suddenly given this microphone a little bit more when it got, again, when it got had to get some of that state of violence, right? In order for it to be considered real. But I've been thinking a lot about the flattening of anti-Asian violence, because there's a lot of difference in our massive, massive community. And it's not a monolith and I see a lot of upper class, upper-middle class folks who are claiming this story, when at the same time, I don't know that they necessarily experienced that to the same degree that folks who are income insecure, folks who are undocumented, folks who are working class, people who are trans, non binary, or women do right? So I think this is kind of, yeah, I don't know, just I've been thinking about this flattening a little bit and the lack of nuance in the encompassing a large group of people with very, very different histories and migration stories, and totally lumping it all together. Yeah.

Respectfulchild
Flattening is a really good word that I hadn't thought of, how to describe what's been happening, because I've just kind of yeah, I think I've been just sort of observing and feeling really, like, perplexed or upset or whatever with, like, on multiple levels, you know, it's like, it's an upsetting thing that's happening, but it's upsetting the way that a lot of the louder voices which are yeah richer and like, more stable and whatever, like less vulnerable to these, like sort of circumstances kind of feels opportunistic in a weird way.

Shellie Zhang
Absolutely.

Respectfulchild
And I think there's a thing that happens with social media where a whole like oppression Olympics kind of goes on because that's what can go viral. That's what can give you clout, that's what you know, it, like looks good. You know, it's like, oh, if you don't say anything, that's bad, you have to say something. But it feels like it's attaching itself to that need for a benefit. Again, instead of being like, what am I learning from this? I think that's what it's changed for me in terms of my concept of ancestry is like what can I learn from these ancestors I don't need to like be receiving anything in terms of benefit, but these lessons and the struggles that they went through will teach me a lot and they teach me about like my own privileges or like my own position and like the world. Yeah, it's so it's, it's a very upsetting time to see the way that like stop Asian hate hash tag has just permeated so many different facets of my life that it feels it's really diluted, diluted, the issue. Diluted is a really good word. I think the most upsetting dilution part for me is when people are calling for more policing in our community, because we do not need more police. Like you read about the histories of how police and Chinese people have interacted, we do not need more policing. You know, I don't know if I ever told you this in my, when we had our check-in meetings about research and stuff, but I got a transcript from Quong-Wing v. The King, which is sort of, there's a photographic work that I've done that sort of inspired by this Supreme Court case that happened that where a man was basically not allowed to hire white waitresses, because he was dubbed a Chinaman, despite the fact that he was a British citizen. So here is a case where race overpowered any nationality, essentially. But in the court transcripts, like one of the main people who was against him was the police chief of Moose Jaw. I cut a section of this out because I'm like, anytime someone is going to be like police have helped Chinese people I'm going to be like, I'm just going to send this through be like, Nah, no, here's one example right away. Yeah, I think that's it's just like, why we don't need more police in our communities. That's not the solution to this at all. I also find stop Asian hate to be a little hollow because I find that it makes it incident based, it makes it isolated. It's not looking systemically at what the problem is, so it's like stop that. It's bad, no shit racism is bad.

Shellie Zhang
And it's not actually getting to the root of the issues a little bit. And it's very easy to shirk responsibility by saying, I don't perpetuate Asian hate, therefore, I'm not part of this.

Respectfulchild
My hands are clean.

Shellie Zhang
Yeah, like, I think the brilliance of Black Lives Matter and you know, Land Back is those are things that highlight systemic issues that affect groups of people and these are things that need to be resolved. Like it points to a larger economy of how this has happened.

Respectfulchild
I saw how it was pointed out like, you know like, did you notice that, when Black Lives Matter it's going out, all lives matter cropped up, but you don't see that same sort of like counter narrative to stop Asian hate happening and that's because stop agent hate is so like, individually focused, like if you as an individual can say, okay, I don't hate Asian people, then it doesn't matter. When you think about Black Lives Matter, like why was it really hitting a nerve with people? Why did they feel the need to say blue lives matter or all lives matters, because it was really highlighting what was what was wrong with like the institution. And things like being really focused on like, hate crimes, like some people are really focusing on trying to get more things classified as hate crimes. It's already so ambiguous like what gets called a hate crime who gets to decide that. It's so individually focused, and then it ultimately resulted being like, we want more people in prison that commit hate crimes. Like it's so almost hypocritical of having like, supported like, Black Lives Matter. And like, last summer, everyone was talking about defunding police and prisons and things like that. And then when suddenly, when your own community feels attacked, it's like, oh, wait, wait, I don't have time to play around anymore. Actually, I want more policing. Like that, it shows how yeah, hollow out a lot of these like words where it's really concerning, because there needs to be way more education and space for these discussions to happen in really like nuanced complex ways. But social media isn't always the best place to have those kinds of like learning spaces either, right? Because it's so performative.

Shellie Zhang
And it's also weird to see people who have never talked about their experiences as East Asian individual suddenly feel like they need to talk about this a little. Which is, I think that's personally fine, because everybody's on their own path of learning and I commend people who, and it's always unfortunate that it has to come at the result of a tragedy, right, but I think it is good that people are on their own learning. I think what is a little strange to me, and I don't know, there hasn't been enough time for me to think about this a little is again, this presenting of experiences as evidence, because I see a lot of people presenting experiences of racism, sexism, all those intersections on social media now and I, again, I think that's important because it's how we share stories, but I'm kind of interested in these waves of when that personal evidence is presented to say again, it's this element of believability we've been talking about like this happens it happened to me, like I think about it in relation to #metoo for instance, like again, this happened, this happened to me and so yeah, again, just kind of grappling with the inability for these things to generate empathy in the end. And then just wondering what solutions can we do to continue these I suppose. There's a really interesting, I guess it's kind of like an essay that was written a few years ago, this was really the 90s. So when we were were babies,

Respectfulchild
You maybe sent this to me already.

Shellie Zhang
The one I think I sent you is, actually I have to credit my friend Lorraine, for sending this to me. It's called We Will Not Be Used, right? Yeah. The other one that she wrote is, she's a lawyer. So this one is specifically about hate crimes. Yeah, actually, maybe we'll move on to the second thing that I was hoping to talk to you a bit about, which is like affect versus effect in terms of our experience. Now that we've, I feel like the first episode that we did was a bit of an effect, because it was right after the experience and we were kind of just processing what happened. And now we've had to sit with it and now we're experiencing the effect of that tour—these reenactment spaces we've been of the past two years. So she wrote this essay, where she talks about hate crimes, and she talks about the impact of hate crimes and hate speech a little bit and how they circulate. And she talks a little bit about how you know, words are actually actions; their actions are intended to hurt. They're not just quote unquote, words that don't have any impact. But I was also more recently reading this piece by Sara Ahmed, who talks about hate being economic. And I've been thinking a little bit about this with a piece I actually made for the show. It's a large LED light in red, and it says the word Authentic, and it's in the wonton font. And I know that font is really kind of triggering for a lot of people because of all the things that conjures right? But I've been thinking a little bit about how signs and symbols and fonts aren't hateful, but how they're utilized and how they're weaponized and how they come about can be hateful. So how hate is not stationary, but how it circulates. And then thinking about how that sort of flows through space a little bit and move. And I don't know that categorizing more hate crimes is gonna make more violence not happen. Right? It's it's again, weird because we're looking to go off for these answers.

Respectfulchild
And because probably anything classified as a hate crime stems from Islamophobia, stems from homophobia stands for, bizarre like, they're like avoiding the larger thing that is creating the situation in the environment for these hate crimes. And they only want to focus on like the product of what it creates, instead of trying to prevent it in like the first place. And it feels like it's like, oh, just keep the police in business.

Shellie Zhang
Don't even get me started on like Andrew Yang and what he's trying to do to mobilize the current situation. " I'm kind of curious your take on, we talked a little bit about how the word "celestial", which is a word that neither of us have ever been called before. Right? Yeah. And then we talked about the word "coolie", which, well you've now been called twic, cause you've been on the tour twice. I've been called once cause I've been on the tour once. And so we kind of talked about these antiquated slurs a little bit and then learning about them. And yeah, we talk a little bit about how they've affected us and the effect they have on us, despite them being sort of old words. And I thinking a little bit about this, because I remember the first time I got called a slur when I first moved to America, and I was so young, I was like, I don't know what this means, like, didn't realize the hate it embodied in that word. And so it was just sort of like, well, I'm learning English, like what is...

Respectfulchild
Because words only words are just words, but then they take on meaning because of what we give them and what how we use.

Shellie Zhang
Absolutely. And the other thing that Sara Ahmed said, which is kind of interesting is she talks about like stickiness with words, and how words and signs they have sticky qualities to them that makes them stuck to hate, stuck to harm, stuck to evil. And I was thinking about our conversation a little bit when we were thinking about how those things haven't been separated and that's why we still feel the effect of these words despite not really having experienced them on our own a little bit.

Respectfulchild
I think it was curious both times that I went on the tour because like the first time I went was just my family and I remember we always found it kind of amusing that the tour guide was white and then the whole group was this Chinese set like we were the entire tour group so it's like four Chinese people being shown this to her by this white person who is then saying and I'm going to call you all coolies and I don't think anyone in my family has ever been called that either like has it used as a slur against us? But we also knew like you could like tell that it was like, oh, even though I've never actually been called this derogatorily by someone, I know that it's like hurtful, it's not okay. And that that person also was like, in their brain being like, do I say it, don't I say it? It's on my script, what do I do and then just be like, bleh, it's just a word, I guess and trying to just like forge ahead really awkwardly. I don't know if I fully know how to explain even when you brought up celestials. I was like, oh, whoa, like, this is such a strange feeling to like, learn another word that I didn't know about before that was used against like, people. I'm like, I'm pretty lucky. I feel like I've never actually had anyone call me a slur. But that doesn't mean that they don't carry that weight with them, you know, but it's like a different time. Like if I had that own, like traumatic experience of like being called that versus just knowing she's just blurting about it. So then I'm like, kind of one step removed. And all those other white people going on that tour. I like how many more steps removed as well.

Shellie Zhang
It's interesting, I think, this removal process because sometimes these words feel so far away, but I wonder how they get recirculated, like the sentiments get recirculated, like now, the 21st century version, the list is kung flu, and China virus. These are, there's always new words being invented, as well, in this definition, sort of, so to speak.

Respectfulchild
I don't know if this is really related. I was listening to an episode of the podcast Still Processing and the New York Times, and the two hosts, they're both Black and they were talking about the N word, which has like a whole different historical context to it than coolie. But the one host just shared this story at the beginning, where he said he was on the peloton app, and he chose a workout and the teacher teaching it was also a Black person but every other person in that peloton class was white. And he like put on this soundtrack that was like all Black artists. And they were like all using the N word attorney and stuff like that. And he was suddenly so aware of how uncomfortable he felt of being in like, in a virtual room of like, only white people, and then feeling like this discomfort of sharing that word with them in the same space. But also Yes, somehow feeling what he had to like perform it, if that makes sense. I don't know if it's totally related. But like, we were very aware, when we went on the tour that they were like four or five Asian, Chinese people. And everyone else was like old and white. And how I guess like that idea of like sharing that word in that space with them in the same time and how it's not the same shared experience and feeling really uncomfortable, almost like it feels like there's like a spotlight being shone on you.

Shellie Zhang
You know, I didn't pick up on that when you were doing that. And now I'm like, I'm just curious of the dynamics a little bit, when we went through that experience. It's weird, because I knew is going to happen, and you told me it was going to happen. And then I'm like, oh, it still feels weird to hear it

Still Processing is brilliant. I haven't heard that episode yet, but I will listen to it. And you actually just reminded me of something which Jenna Wortham one of the co-hosts of Still Processing did not too long ago where she talks about a museum tour that she went on. And so she went to Monticello, which is Jefferson's former in primary place of residence, but also used to be a plantation. And she talks about this part where in the dining room of this massive house, you would see all these small trapdoors on the side, which is where enslaved folks would have to enter and leave from, despite being the fact that they were the folks serving and cooking the meals. And this difference between sort of entrances and of course, this hiding of history, in plain sight, where the history occurred is, is sort of thinking in the same veins of our conversations around the tunnels sort of site seen and unseen. And at the end, she also talks about this idea of not that bad and how this was on a didactic on a reconstructed house that was intended to represent an enslaved family's house. And when you look into this didactic, it goes a bit further into saying, you know, this is what we heard someone who came on this tour said, and it's a preface to essentially say that what you're seeing is a theater of recreation that is inherently unable to capture a true representation of what that experience like which I thought was really interesting.

Respectfulchild
It just reminded me how they're like certain experience actually, that you don't want to have to share with like, other groups of people, specifically the ones that would have been subjecting your people to that sort of breaking up like I don't know if I really want to have to share this experience with you right now. And for it to be upsetting slash like retraumatizing or something like that. This is kind of reminding me of I can't remember where I was listening. It might have been a comedian or something about film, but it was basically just talking in general about like the responsibility that like creatives have to be like, there are no like no subjects that are like off limits, but we have a responsibility and how we address them and how we tell them. And we do not need to be unnecessarily retraumatizing anybody. So like, Why do these historical museum event tour type places? What makes them feel entitled or okay to make those choices about how that experience plays out? Like, is it actually effective to explicitly put something like that? Or are there certain ways that they can go about it, but still convey the same message without causing more like harm and hurt, the coolie thing, obviously, at the top of our minds for this discussion, but I think it's almost in line with being trauma porn or something like that being like, oh, we're gonna use like this, like really intense, edgy artifact from history this word, because you need to experience it. Otherwise, you really can't, wouldn't know what we're talking about. It's like, is that really the only way that you can tell this story?

Shellie Zhang
Yeah. Eve Tuck has this really great essay where she calls for a moratorium on trauma informed research. I thought that was really interesting, because it says a lot of the things you talked about where it's sort of like its silos, what our stories are about. There were so much about this project that I got to do in Saskatoon, like meeting you is probably the pinnacle of it. But the people I got to talk to you, I got to talk to the granddaughter of one of the brothers used to run the Exchange Cafe, I got to talk to one of the daughters of one of the owners of the Golden Dragon. And I got to do this amazing research that showed me all this like richness about how communities came together, like this laundry petition where all these laundries came together and was like no City Hall, we are not going to pay your racist laundry tax. Like those are brilliant stories. We don't hear stories of resistance, we only hear stories of suffering and there's so much beautiful resistance and love that still happens. You know, like in fact, those are those are things that you know, largely maybe kept people going to different degrees. And so why isn't love, these like communal love example celebrated, you know.

Respectfulchild
It just reminded me to have something. And one other thing that really stuck out to me actually listening back on the episode was at the beginning, you were just talking about how the prairies have like such a larger and deep history, like Chinese history, as compared to like in Toronto, where it's more much more recent, ours, like it goes back a lot further over here. And I hadn't really considered that, I think, because in school, they really gloss over it, but they really only just talk about like, oh, the railroads or something like that. And it always felt like Chinese history happens somewhere else. Like in we don't really learn anything about like, what happened here and what is specific to like, our context, I think it just like was one of the nuggets that really gave me a deeper like appreciation and fascination to want to learn way more about our local history. Also, because local history always gets presented is such a bland thing. Like local history, and they pull up a dusty sepia photo of like a car on a street, you know, like, that's literally all that it gets represented as, and there's so much cooler stuff like I hadn't really visited the archives before and I have obviously visited them since because you were sending me all these neat photos of like grocery stores and things like that. I was like this was here? What? I didn't, I had no idea.

Shellie Zhang
There's so much power in local history. And something about them feels really, I mean close to home. Yes, because it's quite literally close to home. But also this happened here. You know, there's such a, we're talking about like degrees of separation before. And I think that this is such a close two degree kind of thing. I should clarify. So I did want to elaborate a bit more about what I meant when I said that Toronto's history, you know, Saskatoon's histories go so much further back. And I think part of why that sort of felt that way is because you know, Toronto gets paved over demolished so quickly. Whereas obviously that happened to Saskatoon to like the first Chinatown, for instance. But it felt like things were there for a bit longer. And I think that was really kind of amazing to be able to look at something that opened in the 60s, as opposed to 10 years ago. This is a little bit about what a piece I did that's called Facades that's gonna be for signage, pieces of empty signs, is kind of about where it's sort of like the feeling of you know, something's changed and you know, something has moved, but you don't know what that is. And you have to sit with that amnesia for a little bit. And sometimes there's a bit of sadness, sometimes there's a bit of wonder, sometimes there's a little bit of regret. Sometimes there's potential excitement if these are good changes, but I think it is kind of a piece that sort of talks about what constitutes heritage and how is heritage quantified, but also how things move so quickly before they're regarded as heritage. Heritage is always seen as something to look back on to as opposed to something that's getting made every day right now.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, totally.

Shellie Zhang
And I think that speaks to your comment about the responsibility of creators a little bit in defining that. How exciting, you know?

Respectfulchild
Very exciting. I feel, I mean, your Facades piece, I really feel that a lot. Just like whenever I realized that I can't quite remember what used to be in a spot before a new thing came in its place. It feels a little bit scary of like, the way that our like collective memories or something can kind of get wiped, if we don't preserve or like active participation in these heritages and stuff like that.

Shellie Zhang
I was gonna say, I'm not like a person who nostalgizes for a path for the sake of preserving something. But I am someone who's interested in like, looking at those definitions and wondering what is in those, what is not in those actually, there's a really beautiful line I wrote down the other day, because in Toronto, little Jamaica is a neighbourhood in Toronto is now being considered if there's going to be a research done to consider it heritage designation in the city, which is significant, because you look at all the neighbourhoods in Toronto that currently have that and they're very white and very rich, because Heritage is used as a tool in a way. And now it's changing a little bit. We've got different neighbourhoods that are sort of changing that a little but that was a really big thing that happened just this past week. But there's this interesting quote from Jane Jacobs in Edge of Empire, where she talks about "which places do or do not become part of heritage and what transformations places undergo in this process of recognition is a key arena for combative struggles with identity and power. It is not simply that heritage places symbolize certain values and beliefs, but that the transition of these places into heritage is a process whereby identity is defined, debated and contested, and where social values are challenged and reproduced." So I was thinking about this in relation to what's happening in Toronto, but I was also thinking about this in regard to the tunnels, cause I think about the tunnels so much...and how those quotes applies to all of that, right?

Respectfulchild
And also like, because often the way that Heritage Preservation kind of works is it's also operating in the past, is it not like it's kind of like, Oh, we want to keep this thing static and preserve as this past thing. We don't want it to be able to be something that's like alive and it's still evolving and that people use. This reminds me of when I was visiting Penang in Malaysia, and one of our family friends was showing us around in George Town, which is an entire area that's preserved as a UNESCO heritage site. And within George Town, we visited this place called Khoo Kongsi, which is the crew family clan temple is beautiful complex with a temple, a stage and all these long houses. And while we were there, he was like, Yeah, I actually used to live here, I grew up here, his name is Mr. Khoo And he like pointed at different things. Like he pointed this tablet being like, I used to slide down there, and he pointed to another quarter being like, we used to pee there. He had all these stories. But now it's completely empty. No one lives there anymore. It's only for visitors as a tourist attraction to come and view. And I think sometimes they'll put on special performances or events on the stage. But it's no longer this living ecosystem that it used to be and I just feel pretty sad and disappointed at the way that preservation works that that they try and keep something static and preserved from the past instead of letting it continue to be a living place.

Shellie Zhang
I mean, they say that, I don't, I've heard this association sort of so much, but I don't know who to attribute to exactly or if there's one person to attribute it to. But they say that when something enters a museum, it dies. And I thought that was really an apt description because A) it connotes a life in these objects before like I think about all these bowls, all these beautiful like vases, all these like things you would find at a bedroom table, or things you would wear and how they are just looked at now and not interacted with and how they're not being fed in the same way. There's a there's a real problem with museums right now that I think they're all kind of contending to catch up with. But this is where, you know, the tunnel sort of sits outside of that because they're in the realm of entertainment. They're almost not scrutinized to the same degree.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, yeah. Well, just on the tangent of like museums and objects and stuff, it just reminded me of this conversation I had with the artist Jeneen Frei Njootli one time where they were telling me about I forget which either art museum or where they where they visited, but they got to like go into like the vault and Jeneen's Gwitchin. And they had like these different like Gwitchin artefacts and one of them was kind of like, almost like a whip like it was like a wooden thing with like these, like long rope tassels and stuff like that. And and Jeanine was like, Oh my gosh, like, I need to play these, like I need to use these out on the land. Because the land hasn't heard these in so many years because they evolve. And I love that way of thinking about it, that he was like, it's alive, and also has a relationship that the land has been missing these objects as well, because they've been locked away. I wasn't just like, I need to take this back for my people, I also need to bring it back to the land that has missed it. And I love that way of thinking.

Shellie Zhang
That's such a beautiful language is like caring for something as opposed to like, I need this. I need, it’s it's mine, you know. It's non possessive. It's almost like a the way you describe it almost sounds like a responsibility to do that. Like that was that that was the impulse I think was really interesting.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, yeah, totally. I was kind of curious, if there's anything that surprised you about your visit, like that week of that you came here, because it was like your first time coming to Saskatchewan. And if there was anything that like that you learned that kind of like changed your like thinking or like, you know, that surprised you and that sort of way.

Shellie Zhang
So few things. Actually, I love Saskatchewan's skies; they're just so beautiful. And I actually am just really awestruck by, just as a scenery place, I just couldn't believe it. It. I mean, I lived in cities my entire life pretty much. And so seeing that was was really beautiful. And this is a little bit about what that billboard piece is about. It's like living under a shared sky, despite history a little bit. And I think the setting really kind of inspired that for me. This was kinda, and this might have been virtue just as the people that I met. But whenever I met various people, and and this even extended to like when I was getting coffee, and I would go to the coffee shop, and people would ask like, what are you doing? And I would say, Oh, I'm doing research about Chinese Canadian history of Saskatoon. There was a lot of people who knew about how bad early Chinese settlers were treated in Saskatoon. Like there were people who were like, Oh, yeah, that's a dark history, or people would be like, Oh, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't that great here. And like it was on multiple occasions. And I was really kind of struck by that because it was, like you said, the fact that this isn't really common knowledge in many experiences. And I know I wouldn't experience that in Toronto, because I mean, for instance, I feel like this isn't taught in history schools, but also the waves of migrations, like you, you almost have to sit with these histories a little bit. Whereas let's say if you're in a bit newer, you don't necessarily have the time to digest that or the privilege to them to look on these things. So I was kind of awestruck at that and I still don't know why necessarily that that is whether it's something in teaching or something maybe culturally in the city, that sort of happens. But that was really surprising. Sometimes it wouldn't extend further than that. But there was this, on multiple occasions. This recognition was like, Oh, I know a little bit about that.

Respectfulchild
Yeah. Like they knew it's not good, even if they don't know details, kind of

Shellie Zhang
Yeah. And I guess that's kind of why it was also weird, because they knew it was not good. And yes, it was not good. But again, there was a lot of richness in these stories, like there was a lot of good. And so just sort of like what was the giant thing that impacted something where people knew where this became a little bit more commonplace knowledge? Perhaps? I still don't know what that is. There's a lot more city planning things. And I think you actually pointed out to me, like was the first time that I heard the term food desert, which.

Respectfulchild
Oh, really

Shellie Zhang
As someone who doesn't drive and was visiting the city, it was so hard to find groceries.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, that was the authentic experience that you had an Airbnb in Riversdale and therefore, you know, grocery stores within access.

Shellie Zhang
Yeah, my friend Tak came and stayed with me for a little bit. And we walked so far and carried all these like groceries back to where I was staying to make dinner. But it was that we went to some of the smaller green grocers on 20th. But largely, they, but this is when we tried to buy some oil to make some food and you needed to buy a gallon. And so that's really, what are we going to do?

Respectfulchild
You're like, I'm here for a week. I can't buy like restaurant stuff.

Shellie Zhang
But I mean, yeah, I wonder what it's like to live without a vehicle. For instance, it must be so challenging.

Respectfulchild
Well, I like the history is always hazy to me. But there's like there's a reason that that area is where it's more. Those are the core neighbourhoods. That's why like Chinatown is situated there, because it's like, cheaper because it's less desirable. The area. But now it's being gentrified, just like a common theme across all Chinatowns these days. It's like, where can people afford to like put up a shop or a restaurant where it's affordable, but then then they get slowly kicked out and put somewhere else, that there's like a reason that there's no grocery stores there either.

Shellie Zhang
It's, that was a bit of, I mean, I'm very spoiled. I'd live like three doors down from a convenience store that has everything.

Respectfulchild
This is now about like food, grocery stores and stuff. But people talk about the doughnut effect in these in cities like Saskatoon where it's so like car centric, it's like everything gets pushed out to the edges, big box malls and stuff like that. And places in the center where it's like Indigenous populations, refugees, Chinatowns, things like that. It's all like centered in there, and they don't have very good access.

Shellie Zhang
You know, what you just remind me of another thing that I think I was really surprised to learn about when I visited Saskatoon and that was that there was an original Chinatown there was a first Chinatown.

Respectfulchild
I didn't know that either. You taught me that.

Shellie Zhang
I was just so shocked at that, because that's what happened in Toronto, Toronto's first Chinatown was demolished for its literal City Hall. And so I always knew that history. But again, I don't know why I suspected it to be isolated as opposed to systemic and planned. So after I learned that, that Saskatoon, I started coming across some research where the destruction of Chinatown was almost necessary. And so many different cities, city-planning techniques. Like you see something a little similar in Philadelphia, for instance, where, again, it's kind of going back to our conversations about what is expendable. Who's stories are expendable; these are whose neighbourhoods are expendable in the name of advancement, modernization and development. So that was kind of a I think, a little bit of a shock to learn that that was a pattern, I suppose that extended to various places.

Respectfulchild
That's a strange feeling when it's something that you're familiar with in your own city, but then you find out it almost like cookie cutter happens. And like all these other places. I really didn't know there was like a first Chinatown and it was it was almost confusing when you found that article, because I didn't quite know what you're talking with in one conversation, but talking about like two different things. That's like, literally, that's like pretty much what I couldn't get it out of my head. And that's why, why my project. What it became because I was like, this land literally sits on like the graveyard of the first Chinatown. Actually, now I'm just remembering like, when I visited the city archives, there were such interesting conversations with Ken and Jeff, I believe?

Shellie Zhang
They're the best people.

Respectfulchild
They were so excited that, they were like, bring out the tea. We have a guest.

Shellie Zhang
They're so nice. Love you City of Saskatoon Archives.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, but yeah, they were like, you know, this is the first kind of like the first recorded instance of urban renewal in the city. And we already talked about this during my chat. But it was so strange making that connection between when you had given me the recommendation to listen to Nice White Parents the podcast. And then I was like, Well wait, the first Chinatown was cleared because they wanted to build like a high school and then it became a technical collegiate. And it was always like, oh, what's expendable? And it's like, why is it expendable? It's because the Chinese are dirty, they have diseases, they like drugs, their crime rate and that sort of thing. And being able to like see that being pinpointed historically, but then basically seeing those same kinds of like stereotypes and whatnot, happening today. But just with, like, different group of people, you know, it's like, oh, maybe it's not close, specifically Chinatown in that same way. But like, that same thing still persists. And like, that's why we see these things as like these places, these people as expendable. Yeah, there's another thing that I remembered from their visit that I kind of forgot about, which was they talked about, like, kind of the myth of tunnels a little bit. And it was something kind of like, there was like this myth of these Chinese people having tunnels and that they may or may not have had them, but it was more so the fact that like, because they didn't have a lot of money, they would buy one building and they break it up into lots of different suites. So there'd be like multiple people living in like little rooms, all in one building. They all have doors, connecting all of them. And if the cops came and tried to like chase one of them, they could just like escape through all of these doors.

Shellie Zhang
I remember that too.

Respectfulchild
So that there was like another layer. There's like the literal tunnels and then there's like these, like, mythological tunnels. But the tunnel thing was literally of this idea of being like these elusive Chinese people that can always like slip under our hands, but it was like kind of derogatory, it was like, Oh, it's because they're like crammed and dirty living in these huts to get there. Like,

Shellie Zhang
They're so sneaky.

Respectfulchild
They're, they're chrome to do because like they don't have money and they can't get in deployment and you know, like, Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that there's like this other layer to the tunnels mythology.

Shellie Zhang
I was thinking a little, okay, this can or cannot make it into the recording. I don't know if I'm going to do it yet, but I didn't, I did want to share this with you. So I found a few things online that talks about the tunnels, and they talk about the story in the tunnels as truth. So the Wikipedia page for the town of Moose Jaw, for instance, has a section on the tunnels, and they talk about that experience of Chinese men and families living in the tunnels as truth. There's a Atlas Obscura article where they talk about that as truth. And so just one small, I mean, I've been thinking about like, quote, unquote, interventions and what I could do to intervene in these dialogues, and I don't want to do them in these museum spaces, because these are inherently harmful spaces. I can't just go in and do an intervention. And then it's been like, it's like, reflexive. So it's like, you know, the museum is aware of these issues that talked about it, hence, that's, that's sufficient kind of a thing. So I was thinking, like, what can an intervention look like? And I want to edit these Wikipedia pages, so that I can at least literally make an amendment to make a falseness, right. And there's no citations on this Wikipedia entry mind you. And I have citation and I want to include it back here just to you know, next person who reads that maybe going to the tour, there's a little bit of a knowledge base going into it.

Respectfulchild
I'm excited about this. Hacker Shellie.

Shellie Zhang
Well, I'm kind of I'm a little scared, because last time I tried to do Wikipedia edit something years ago, really, there's like, racist Wikipedia editors who will counter what you edit.

Respectfulchild
Oh, God. Why do people have the time?

Shellie Zhang
But I have a friend who is a senior Wikipedia editor, like he's got a lot of credentials, I'm going to maybe ask him if it doesn't work out. But um, this is also why I reached out to this lady, Dr. Ashleigh Androsoff, who teaches at U of Sask, because I want to ask her if she has more things maybe she's written with more sources and then I could cite him this. But I'll probably like screen record it when I do it or something like that.

Respectfulchild
That would be amazing. Can I do this soundtrack?

Shellie Zhang
Like climaxed?

Respectfulchild
Really, really tense music while you're like logging in.

Shellie Zhang
I'll send it to you after this is just like what I honestly thought of this this past week. I'm like, I need to do this. I can't just let them live on the internet.

Respectfulchild
I've been thinking about like, should I write them a letter? Should I have written a letter to the tunnel? So I emailed them and be like, but then I'm like, sometimes something that's already really problematic. Is it better to try and make it a little bit better, even though it's still like in its whole form, its problematic.

Shellie Zhang
I don't know how you would intervene in that place. Let's get a group of 30 people of color to go on that tour and then question the I mean, I wish we questioned that. We went into that towards knowing it was fake. Yeah, but I wish we questioned it a bit more. Yeah. And I think part of that was we were kind of shocked.

Respectfulchild
Yeah totally. Yeah. It's gonna be around for a while.

Shellie Zhang
Really, such a shame again, like right across the street. That one site at one Main Street has so much beautiful history. It's literally across the street, like you asked me what was the biggest shocker of Moose Jaw, or excuse me, the biggest shocker of Saskatoon and there are multiple but the most dramatic shock of the trip and the residency I did i think was that the Supreme Court case I was fascinated at a distance about happened five steps away from the Tunnels of Mooaw Jaw. Like this real thing that had an impact on so many people's lives happened steps away from this hyper fabricated fictionalized Loch Ness Monster story that is perpetuated now. And I think that was the biggest like optic thing that was a shock. Okay, I have one question that I want us to end on. And it might be a little short. And we've got we've kind of actually answered it a little bit right now. But it's sort of like where do we find ourselves now, two years after our initial conversation, two years of thinking about the tunnels and the spaces two years after a more heightened time of anti-Asian racism and COVID related racism. It's just like, where do we find ourselves now in relation to everything we've been thinking about? I guess we kind of talked about that with our dream interventions that we wanted to do, but also like these, these projects that we've been working on for 2 years to develop other perspectives a little bit, but, I put it in my notes. Could we work at tunnels?

Respectfulchild
No, I think it's because we talked about that. We were talking about it last time we are like, what would it be like if we work there? What would it be like if the tour guide was Chinese and saying, your, your ancestors called my people coolies. And like you, you did that, too? You know, like, how would they feel about it not having a white voice telling them the story? how uncomfortable would they be how I'm receptive to the story?

Shellie Zhang
I think they would close down. No one's gonna pay for white guilt.

Respectfulchild
Yeah, it's true. Oh, where am I? With all of us?

Shellie Zhang
I still don't think I mean, last time we spoke we didn't have any answers. And yeah, I think that's okay.

Respectfulchild
I think it would feel weird to try and have like an answer in a sec, in sort of, in a way, because it's like a lot of this stuff. It's still so it's like, complex, it's messy. It's like in in this like, ambiguous state of being like, what do I do? Or like, how do I feel about this, I don't even fully know, I'm probably still processing.

Shellie Zhang
I think looking back on these two years, I'm very thankful for the people who I got to talk to in this process, who were interested in talking to me as a result of doing this sharing together. And I think that's where the power of both of history and oral history comes through. Right is like, maybe it's kind of like what you're saying with things that get held in museums, like they live in isolation without interaction so they're like the person I can't quote, they're sort of dead. But if we keep talking about things to keep these things alive, then the stories alive. And I also think it's perhaps not for us to make it answer of what, you know, our processing is the answer. Kinda. Yeah. But I also think it's kind of interesting, because we're literally trying to envision a world where white supremacy and colonialism doesn't exist, and no one's ever does. Like when I think when I hear people who have been doing abolitionists' work forever, they're like, what is the world without police look like? It's like the first question they get. And they're like, well, we don't know. We've never, our lifetime, we haven't seen that before. People before saw that, and they lived x and y way, but we get to rework what our relationship with one another is and I think that's really exciting.

Respectfulchild
Yeah. So exciting. And also so scary, because we're just like, walking out into a void. Yeah. And having to be like creative and imaginative each other, right? Trying to think of what could be when we haven't, when we don't know what that feels like, or when we haven't experienced it ourselves.

Shellie Zhang
I think, despite all the anxiety and dread at this time, I'm very inspired by what people are doing and see what they're doing and learning about what they're doing. Like there's an energy there that really is quite contagious.

Respectfulchild
I think there's a part of me that even though I This isn't an answer, but it's like there's almost a part of me that in a way of trying to make sense of all the things that are going on this feeling like I need to know more about what happened in the past, as if it'll like tie all the knots together for me, even though I know it won't. It's not like the one definitive answer, but it feels like how can I understand why things are happening the way they are right now without knowing what happened before and just be like, give me more, give me more.

Shellie Zhang
Okay, this is if we were in a movie if we were in an adventure movie. We—our like adventure treasure is finding the root of racism. But all we have been finding is like other clues that bring us elsewhere. You know.

Respectfulchild
There's like discussions. Fake leads.

Shellie Zhang
It's like your princess is in another castle. That we need to jot that down for biopic about the two of us. And the journey is to the root of racism. And this is where we'll get that old timey photo taken. And that'll be adventure story. Oh, yeah, of course.

Respectfulchild
And then it's like, To be continued because now we're like a superhero pair.

Shellie Zhang
So funny. It is like sometimes you see at the end of movies when they like, yeah, everything is calm now. The climax happens when they take a photo so that is kind of fitting.

Respectfulchild
like doo doo doo doo.

Shellie Zhang
Yeah, like, oh, everything's perfect. Now I'm going to snapshot this.